Infallibility - revisited

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

The old (superseded) version of the Catholic Encyclopedia including a reference to Leo's quote is not the same as a Council of the Church referring to it. Sorry.

My comments are relative to your statement, which was:

Originally Posted by Vince1022

"Peter has spoken through Leo" has been a traditionally important and strong argument for papal primacy.

Not for teaching infallibly.

Since you stated that for papal primacy the quote of Leo has been an important and strong argument, and since the Vatican I dogmatic definiton of infallability, is as stated, based upon the apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter with teaching authority, expressed by the ecumenical councils, it is not clear why you say that the quote of Leo does not apply.

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

My comments are relative to your statement, which was:



Since you stated that for papal primacy the quote of Leo has been an important and strong argument, and since the Vatican I dogmatic definiton of infallability, is as stated, based upon the apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter with teaching authority, expressed by the ecumenical councils, it is not clear why you say that the quote of Leo does not apply.

Because the quote of Leo was not used to support infallibility.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

Because the quote of Leo was not used to support infallibility.

Actually Vatican I supports infallibility using all the quotes of "the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared" the apostolic primacy of the Roman pontiff as successor of Peter including also the supreme power of teaching.

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

Actually Vatican I supports infallibility using all the quotes of "the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared" the apostolic primacy of the Roman pontiff as successor of Peter including also the supreme power of teaching.

Ecumenical councils by Catholic definition include everyone, east and west. So where did any such council use the quote we're discussing to support infallibility?

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

Ecumenical councils by Catholic definition include everyone, east and west. So where did any such council use the quote we're discussing to support infallibility?

Although not the complete statement from Vatican I, the following from the dogmatic declaration of infallability refers to Chalcedon as it is such an ecumenical council as those included in the third bullet below:


"That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.

• This holy see has always maintained this,
• the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and
• the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Coun...20.htm#SESSION

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

Although not the complete statement from Vatican I, the following from the dogmatic declaration of infallability refers to Chalcedon as it is such an ecumenical council as those included in the third bullet below:


"That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching.

• This holy see has always maintained this,
• the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and
• the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it."

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Coun...20.htm#SESSION

Exactly my point. Thanks.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

Exactly my point. Thanks.

You may think that you have made a point, yet you have not explained it. It is not clear what you are talking about.

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

You may think that you have made a point, yet you have not explained it. It is not clear what you are talking about.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

"The Pope has spoken through Leo" was not part of your post. So, I agree, you confirmed my point.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

"The Pope has spoken through Leo" was not part of your post. So, I agree, you confirmed my point.

But that is a different idea than what you said inpost #62 that, "Peter has spoken through Leo" has been a traditionally important and strong argument for papal primacy. Not for teaching infallibly."

I am trying to understand the logic of your original statement from post #62, especially since primacy and teaching infallibly are per the Vatican I dogmatic definition of papal primacy with teaching authority, always maintained, a constant custom, and declared ecumenically by East and West.

If seems that you reject that papal primary includes teaching authority traditionally as described in Vatican I.

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

But that is a different idea than what you said inpost #62 that, "Peter has spoken through Leo" has been a traditionally important and strong argument for papal primacy. Not for teaching infallibly."

I am trying to understand the logic of your original statement from post #62, especially since primacy and teaching infallibly are per the Vatican I dogmatic definition of papal primacy with teaching authority, always maintained, a constant custom, and declared ecumenically by East and West.

If seems that you reject that papal primary includes teaching authority traditionally as described in Vatican I.

Where did Vatican I use this quote to support papal infallibility?

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

Where did Vatican I use this quote to support papal infallibility?

Vatican I includes all of the following which apply to the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff: statements made by the Holy See, the constant custom of the church, and the ecumenical councils. This includes Chalcedon.

"Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff

That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching. This holy see has always maintained this, the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it. ...

9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our saviour, for the exaltation of the catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the sacred council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma ..."

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

Vatican I includes all of the following which apply to the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff: statements made by the Holy See, the constant custom of the church, and the ecumenical councils. This includes Chalcedon.

"Chapter 4. On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman pontiff

That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching. This holy see has always maintained this, the constant custom of the church demonstrates it, and the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it. ...

9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our saviour, for the exaltation of the catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the sacred council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma ..."

Yes, of course, I've read it. But, again, no reference to the quote regarding Leo. Thanks anyway.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

Yes, of course, I've read it. But, again, no reference to the quote regarding Leo. Thanks anyway.

You did not answer my query.

I am trying to understand the logic of your original statement from post #62, especially since primacy and teaching infallibly are per the Vatican I dogmatic definition of papal primacy with teaching authority, always maintained, a constant custom, and declared ecumenically by East and West.

[Vince1022]

Originally Posted by Vico

You did not answer my query.

I am trying to understand the logic of your original statement from post #62, especially since primacy and teaching infallibly are per the Vatican I dogmatic definition of papal primacy with teaching authority, always maintained, a constant custom, and declared ecumenically by East and West.

In my post 62 I posted ""Peter has spoken through Leo" has been a traditionally important and strong argument for papal primacy. Not for teaching infallibly."

Vatican I, when teaching about papal infallibility, did not refer to the quotation about Leo. Which confirms my understanding. I hope this clarifies. Thanks.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Vince1022

In my post 62 I posted ""Peter has spoken through Leo" has been a traditionally important and strong argument for papal primacy. Not for teaching infallibly."

Vatican I, when teaching about papal infallibility, did not refer to the quotation about Leo. Which confirms my understanding. I hope this clarifies. Thanks.

Yet, Vatican I states that it is a constant tradition that:

"That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching,"

and does not exclude Chalcedon where the statement of teaching authority was made: "Peter has spoken through Leo".

The primacy is not independent of the teaching authority so if "Peter has spoken through Leo" has been a traditionally important and strong argument for papal primacy, then how can it not apply to teaching infallibly without denying what Vatican I has stated?