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  #16  
Old Sep 26, '10, 8:52 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
The Catholic Church doesn't formally embrace the heliocentric theory, so if someone wants to believe in the geocentric theory, that is their right. Similarly, the same applies to evolution or a literal interpretation of Genesis: Catholics are free to believe in either, so long as they do not reject God's oversight of, and involvement in, creation
In two thousand years, has no one in the Church thought to go beyond anything to do with Creation except God done it? I mean there’s conservative and ultra-conservative but…
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  #17  
Old Sep 26, '10, 12:48 pm
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Marc Anthony Marc Anthony is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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In two thousand years, has no one in the Church thought to go beyond anything to do with Creation except God done it? I mean there’s conservative and ultra-conservative but…
Of course members of the Church have thought of it. But the Church is only bound to tell what God has revealed to them. God has revealed to them that He has created the universe. Not much more (I hesitate to say something as constricting as nothing more).
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  #18  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:24 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Of course members of the Church have thought of it. But the Church is only bound to tell what God has revealed to them. God has revealed to them that He has created the universe. Not much more (I hesitate to say something as constricting as nothing more).
It didn’t stop someone working out an detailed moral system though. On the other hand if you’re arguing for sola scriptura, who am I to blow against the wind?
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  #19  
Old Sep 28, '10, 3:17 pm
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by Cojuanco View Post
Can someone explain to me the Vatican's position on the Copernican thory on the relationship among the Earth, the sun and the planets? I mean, a Catholic can believe it as a scientific fact in good conscience, right?

And what's with the Sungenis conference on geocentrism?
Depends what you mean by the 'Vatican' Cojuanco. If you mean the Church then it has defined and declared that the Copernican theory of a fixed sun relative to the earth is formally heretical based purely on its being contrary to the Scriptures and the interpretation of it by all the Fathers of the Church.. If you mean the men inside the Vatican, those supposedly about the business of protecting the Church's position,well they all turned Copernican bar one in 1741-1835 and thus propagate their opinion that Catholics can now accept what was once defined and declared as formal heresy as a truth compatible with the Scriptures.
As for what one believes, well if your belief in the formal heresy is done through inculpable ignorance then you will not be held at fault. But since 1905 when Einstein reintroduced relativity as a scientific fact and all heliocentric bets were off, that certainty that the sun is fixed relative to the earth was not possible to prove and that a material geocentric world was possible, one has a duty to re-examine the situation in the light of the Church's ruling of 1616 and 1633. The problem cannot be solved by science, only by faith, as it was in 1616 and as it remains today.

Sungenis's conference on geocentrism would be the perfect place to do your research.
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  #20  
Old Sep 28, '10, 8:54 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

Catholics are to believe that God is the Creator of heaven and earth.

The Catholic Deposit of Faith does not include any duly defined and universally declared theological dogmas on the physical position or movements of the physical, material earth.
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  #21  
Old Sep 28, '10, 9:08 pm
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Marc Anthony Marc Anthony is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by inocente View Post
It didn’t stop someone working out an detailed moral system though. On the other hand if you’re arguing for sola scriptura, who am I to blow against the wind?
I think the answer here's obvious, no? A detailed morals system helps us to achieve salvation. But knowing *exactly* how the universe was created doesn't.

It's slightly circular because I believe if it WAS necessary/very very helpful to know exactly how the universe was created then God would have revealed it to us, but whatever.
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"But he was undoubtedly a moron to begin with. Illiterate, superstitious, murderous....Look at him, and tell me if you see the progeny of a once-mighty civilization? What do you see?"

"The image of Christ," grated the monsignor, surprised at his own sudden anger. "What did you expect me to see?"
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  #22  
Old Sep 29, '10, 5:23 am
inocente inocente is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by Marc Anthony View Post
It's slightly circular because I believe if it WAS necessary/very very helpful to know exactly how the universe was created then God would have revealed it to us, but whatever.
I was joking in part, and found the following by a certain J Ratzinger which explains an excellent position.

Scroll down to the last para of the section “True God vs. false gods”. Note how he dismisses the seven days as a literary device and cares not a jot for traditionally claimed authorship. Explicitly, scripture is organic, none of the creation accounts are perfect, and implicitly further perfection is allowed for after the Bible was canonized, including presumably (?) scientific accounts. All these point to one truth.

He’s a much more spiritual guy than I gave credit (apologies Señor Ratzinger), going far deeper than the usual CAF debate. Be nice to have a chat with him sometime.

(Later on he loses focus a little on evolution, seeing it as a sequence of mistakes rather than accidents that overcome “mistakes”, but that’s OK given the Catholic tradition of seeing us as more than flesh).

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p81.htm
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  #23  
Old Sep 29, '10, 6:49 am
journierman journierman is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by cassini View Post
If you mean the men inside the Vatican, those supposedly about the business of protecting the Church's position,well they all turned Copernican bar one in 1741-1835 and thus propagate their opinion that Catholics can now accept what was once defined and declared as formal heresy as a truth compatible with the Scriptures.search.
Wait a minute. So you are saying that for almost 300 years all the bishops of the Catholic Church and all the popes have held to a formal heresy and allowed that heresy to be taught in Catholic schools and to be believed by 99.999% of all Catholics without one single word of warning or any effort discouraging anybody away from that heresy?

Catholic Church, meet the gates of Hell.

Come on, fella this does not add up.
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  #24  
Old Sep 29, '10, 7:51 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by journierman View Post
Wait a minute. So you are saying that for almost 300 years all the bishops of the Catholic Church and all the popes have held to a formal heresy and allowed that heresy to be taught in Catholic schools and to be believed by 99.999% of all Catholics without one single word of warning or any effort discouraging anybody away from that heresy?

Catholic Church, meet the gates of Hell.

Come on, fella this does not add up.
Of course it doesn't add up.

There have been miles of posts explaining that the Catholic Church does not consider the 1616 decree as part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

There have been miles of posts explaining that the 1616 decree is in no way, no how, a duly defined and universally declared theological dogma. Thus, there is no formal heresy despite all the current yelling of the four-letter word heresy to win a scientific point.

Apparently, there is some kind of personal need to use Catholicism as a proof for a scientific theory.
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  #25  
Old Sep 29, '10, 4:22 pm
cassini cassini is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by journierman View Post
Wait a minute. So you are saying that for almost 300 years all the bishops of the Catholic Church and all the popes have held to a formal heresy and allowed that heresy to be taught in Catholic schools and to be believed by 99.999% of all Catholics without one single word of warning or any effort discouraging anybody away from that heresy?

Catholic Church, meet the gates of Hell.

Come on, fella this does not add up.
At best we can say their heresy is hopefully material. Inculpable ignorance excuses them from formal heresy, due to their belief thast science has proven the 1616 decree to have been erroneous. Since 1905 however that ignorance should have been corrected. Alas now they believe heliocentrism as a scientific dogma, that is, they have placed their faith now in science rather than in the Church of 1616.
Fortunately the Catholic Church is not involved in this as all anti-1616 decree Copernicans acted outside the Church's magisterium. Proof for this is that nowhere will you find any suggestion of abrogation, the only way to overturn a papal decree, nor was there ever a retrial of Galileo, the only official way to overturn his condemnation as a suspected heretic.

Then again you could believe pope granny who also speaks unofficially for the Church.
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  #26  
Old Sep 30, '10, 9:22 am
hugh r. miller hugh r. miller is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by Dale_M View Post
I believe Hugh Miller will be one of the speakers at the Sungenis conference on geocentrism, specifically on the topic of Carbon-14 dating showing support for Young Earth creationism.
Yes I was invited to speak as a scientist who has been involved in laboratory and/field research since 1953 -- specifically electrochemistry. In 1968 or so I became totally disenchanted with the theory of evolution that man has evolved from a common ancestor with the chimps going one direction and man going another. In 1982 I branched out [on the side] into the study of fossil ichnites [trace impressions like footprints of man and dinosaur] and then C-14 dating of the fossils -- even worked in a small C-14 dating research lab for three years, 2000-2003.

After repeated discoveries of distinct pristine human prints with dinosaurian ones by many teams in the Glen Rose TX Cretaceous rock strata I and other teams began C-14 dating the fossils instead of radiometrically dating the rocks. So from 1986 on the teams I worked with began C-14 dating dinosaur bones and other fossils culminating in a series of technical papers including the last one published in late 2009 by the National Research Council of Italy [The CNR] in a book with other papers and edited by Dr. Roberto de Mattei, VP and historian with The CNR book entitled, Evolutionism: The decline of an hypothesis.

Hopefully this book eventually will be published in English so that CAF staff and members might have a chance to come to the same realization that I have -- that the evolution hypothesis - mud changing into people by unknown processes over millions and billions of years - will join the pile of junk sciences along with the "Philosopher's stone burning lead to gold."

Meanwhile I will let the spirit lead me where It will as so admirably put by Blessed Cardinal Newman:

'In 1833 Newman had written the wonderful hymn, Lead Kindly Light. His trust in that 'Light' was absolute. His faith in Divine Providence was evident in all his preaching. In one sermon he stated:

"Let a person who trusts he is on the whole serving God acceptably,
look back upon his past life, and he will find how critical were moments and acts,
which at the time seemed the most indifferent: as for instance the school
he was sent to, his falling in with those persons who have most benefitted him,
the accidents which determined his calling or prospects.
God's hand is ever over his own, and He leads them forward by a way they
know not." ' REF: Catholic forum on Cardinal Newman.
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  #27  
Old Sep 30, '10, 6:48 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by inocente View Post
In two thousand years, has no one in the Church thought to go beyond anything to do with Creation except God done it? I mean there’s conservative and ultra-conservative but…
There are plenty of Catholics and other Christians who have explored natural science, etc.

What I am saying is that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church does not make a duly defined and universally declared theological dogma out of what rightfully belongs in the realm of science.
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  #28  
Old Sep 30, '10, 7:29 pm
Pat De Pat De is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by Marc Anthony View Post
Of course members of the Church have thought of it. But the Church is only bound to tell what God has revealed to them. God has revealed to them that He has created the universe. Not much more (I hesitate to say something as constricting as nothing more).
Wouldn't it be easier to proclaim that God has created everything that has ever existed? The only thing I can think of outside of that is that He allowed sin, but did not create sin; if sin is an actual creation, which I do not believe it is since sin is actually rebellion against God.

I believe God when He said He created in a literal six days; why would anyone take another view? God did make it absolutely clear that my 10 year old can read it and tell me it took six days for God to create the universe. If it was important for God to communicate this, then should we not accept it and rejoice in it?
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  #29  
Old Sep 30, '10, 7:45 pm
DavidPalm DavidPalm is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by cassini View Post
At best we can say their heresy is hopefully material. Inculpable ignorance excuses them from formal heresy, due to their belief thast science has proven the 1616 decree to have been erroneous. Since 1905 however that ignorance should have been corrected. Alas now they believe heliocentrism as a scientific dogma, that is, they have placed their faith now in science rather than in the Church of 1616.
Fortunately the Catholic Church is not involved in this as all anti-1616 decree Copernicans acted outside the Church's magisterium. Proof for this is that nowhere will you find any suggestion of abrogation, the only way to overturn a papal decree, nor was there ever a retrial of Galileo, the only official way to overturn his condemnation as a suspected heretic.

Then again you could believe pope granny who also speaks unofficially for the Church.
Cassini, I can certainly appreciate your desire to defend the Church's integrity, but I'm not sure you're seeing the full ramifications of what you're saying. You speak very generally of "they" and "them", without acknowledging that you are speaking of a whole succession of Popes and all the bishops in communion with them.

Over in another thread you explicitly admit that you believe that this “heresy” will harm the faith of the faithful. Is it really true, then, that the entire hierarchy themselves hold a heresy and allow it to spread unchecked for centuries without one word or action to check it? And this has been the status quo for centuries? Notice what happened to Pope Honorius I who, in reply to an heretical letter penned by Sergius the Patriarch of Constantinople, utilized the phrase "one will". Most scholars agree that he did not hold the heresy to which he was responding. But he was formally condemned by the Sixth Ecumenical Council and this condemnation was affirmed by Pope Leo II: "We anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Sergius, ...and also Honorius, who did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of Apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted."

Here you tell us that not siding with the condemnation of Galileo will cause tremendous harm to the Church's credibility, indeed will undermine her claim to infallibility.

So then, what does siding with the pronouncements against Galileo do? For almost three hundred years now, not one word has been said by any bishop or any Pope in condemnation of this "formal heresy". This includes even the sainted Pius X and the beatified Pius IX and John XXIII. More than that, this "formal heresy" has been openly taught in Catholic grade schools, high schools, colleges, universities, and pontifical institutions. This "formal heresy" has been presented as established fact in numerous articles and books written by Catholics and for Catholics, many of which bear the Church's imprimatur and nihil obstat. It is believed by the vast majority of the Catholics of the world—that includes the world's bishops and priests, not to mention the Pope. The Magisterium has given the faithful not one hint that there is any problem whatsoever in believing this "formal heresy", let alone actively and repeatedly warn them away from it. More than that, a Pope has publicly apologized for the treatment of Galileo, which could do nothing but bolster the view that this belief is perfectly legitimate for the faithful to hold.

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but typically within the testosterone-drenched apologetics of those like Sungenis, the only reason anyone could possibly fail to teach openly against a "formal heresy" is if he's either a simpleton or a coward. Which again tars the entire Catholic magisterium for the past 300 years as either dupes or traitors.

It seems amazing to me that you would be willing to uphold the logical conclusion of your position, namely that all the Popes at least from Benedict XIV (1740) up through Benedict XVI (present), along with all the bishops in communion with them, have utterly failed to exercise the vigilance their office demands of them. According to your position they "did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of Apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted."

Now there are very good reasons not to hold that the motion of the earth is a "formal heresy". But the indefectibility of the Catholic Church is without a doubt a dogma of the faith. I see no way your position can be held in light of that dogma and thus, to be blunt, it seems to me that it is you who are flirting with heresy. GrannyH and others have demonstrated that it is relatively easy to harmonize the indefectibility of the Church with a mistake made by a theological commission, even one approved by the Pope. It is far easier to see that terrestrial motion is a matter of scientific belief and not a matter of faith and morals, to believe that a commission of theologians erred in their judgment of Galileo, than that the entire Church, hierarchy and faithful, have been plunged into this "formal heresy".

It would seem that those who hold this extreme position with respect to geocentrism are like a monkey grasping a pebble in a precious Ming vase, unwilling to give up his prize and willing instead to smash the jar in order to have it. Or perhaps more like a man who would burn down a whole building, with all the people in it, just to kill a rat.
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  #30  
Old Oct 1, '10, 5:04 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic heliocentrism

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Originally Posted by Cojuanco View Post
Can someone explain to me the Vatican's position on the Copernican thory on the relationship among the Earth, the sun and the planets? I mean, a Catholic can believe it as a scientific fact in good conscience, right?
If you are looking for a duly declared Catholic theological dogma on the Copernican theory, there is none. Thus, one is free to study the Copernican theory, discuss the science surrounding it, and choose what to believe regarding it.

The physical positions of the sun, planets, moon, earth are matters of science exploration. As such, they can be discussed by anyone, including high ranking clergy. However, any individual in the Catholic Church can caution people regarding scientific explorations. Usually, this is done in a positive format by stating the appropriate theological dogma.

For example. Recently, Stephen Hawking wrote a book attempting to show that God is not needed regarding the physical and material universe. Catholics reply with the theological dogma, God is the Creator of all.
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