Current Book Discussion -

[DesertSister62]

Do we have any other comments for Chapter one? I have finished reading Chapter One and Two but I realize that some of us have just gotten started so I haven't wanted to charge in and begin discussing Chapter Two. I am beginning to see the error of my ways in not thinking that we needed to have a thread per chapter BUT, my main problem still exists and that is that it will take up the front page on the group. Because I realize that the rest of you can't twiddle your thumbs waiting for me to do something, I have contacted James_OPL and am waiting to hear back. He usually checks around midnight, so hopefully he will add his input and we will go from there, tommorow.

In the meantime I will begin reading the Forward again!

DesertSister62

[pippin]

It looks like our group is closed. Maybe one of us could start a new group and we can continue the discussion.

[catholictiger]

i'm behind but i don't mind if you guys go forward ill try and catch up

[DesertSister62]

Hey all!

I was totally caught off guard by the closing of the group until I found out that the owner was doing something not allowed and that is what brought it about.

Actually, I have missed the group myself, but I hadn't remembered that the forum threads existed separately from the group. Thank God I was finally reminded by email or I might have missed them forever!

I have been excited by the responses from all of you regarding, "Jesus of Nazareth," especially you, pippin, as you were able to inform me about things that I didn't know. Do any of you want to begin a new group? If not, I will do so as I was looking forward to learning more from others that were much more well informed!

I won't be able to do it right this minute but will wait to hear back from you guys this evening. Then if no one wants to do it I will and then get a private message off to any that contributed to this thread! I should have it up and running by Sunday at the latest if its left up to me.

DesertSister62

[Indyann]

Count me in, please.

[GraceSofia]

DS,

I am still around and you can count me in.

I had a difficult week last week with a family member in hospital, and didn't get around to checking the club until last night. I was wondering what had happened!

Also, since it looked like we were going to go slowly, I had decided to finish off another book that I'm reading now about JPII, but I am still interested in discussing J of N.

Then if no one wants to do it I will

I think you're elected.

[DesertSister62]

Well, I got carried away with the introduction on the group but I did the best I could under the circumstances. ANYHOW, the problem is that we need at least 10 members to be able to open a forum so, those of you reading this need to sign in on the group and we will get started. Until we have ten members we will just have to make use of this thread that we are currently using! Here is the link to the new group:

http://forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=763

And everyone finding this thread can use that link and sign in to the group also.

I will begin posting on the group and we will use the wall posts for any conversation other than discussing the book. Okay? We will save this thread for the discussion.

I will have to reread as I haven't read since we lost the group and I don't have the posts to refer back to. Hopefully I will be able to reply if someone wants to comment on Chapter One or Two. I probably don't have answers but I ask questions really well!!

DesertSister62

[DesertSister62]

Well, I'm a little late, but my attention got stuck in the first few pages and I saw something that I hadn't ever seen before. Here goes;

I was all set to discuss something that I ran across at the end of the second Chapter but in my read through tonight I didn't get that far because I got caught up in something that was covered in the first few pages. I didn't catch it in my first read through, but this time it reached out and grabbed me.

Remember in the first temptation of Jesus when the devil said: "If you are the Son of God, turn these stones into loaves of bread? As Benedict says, "Christ is being challenged to establish his credibility by offering evidence for his claims."

Most of us have heard these words that if God IS God then He should be able to end all hunger! Is it because Jesus is unable to do what is asked as to why we still have hunger in the world? No, because a little further on in the gospels we read that He fed the "thousands." So why does He do it at this time and not during the temptations?

We find a hint in these words: The crowds had left everything in order to come hear God's word. They are people who have opened their heart to God and to one another; they are therefore, ready to receive the bread with the proper disposition. In other words, the miracle of the loaves has three aspects, then:

1. It is preceded by the search for God,
2. for his word, for the teaching that sets the whole of life on the right path.
3. Readiness to share with one another is an essential element of the miracle.

And of course we know about the Last Supper which becomes the Eucharist of the Church and Jesus' perpetual miracle of bread. Here Jesus becomes the grain of wheat that died and brought forth much fruit!

I say all this to point out that when the above ordering of goods is no longer respected, but turned on its head, the result is not justice or concern for human suffering. The result is rather ruin and destruction even of material goods themselves. When God is regarded as a secondary matter that can be set aside temporarily or permanently on account of more important things, it is precisely these supposedly more important things that come to nothing!

Benedict uses as an example, the last paragraph on page 33. I don't know about you but it really caught my attention tonight! Here it is:

"The aid offered by the West to developing countries has been purely technically and materially based, and not only has left God out of the picture, but has driven men away from God. And this aid, proudly claiming to "know better," is itself what first turned the "third world" into what we mean today by that term. It has thrust aside indigenous religious, ethical, and social structures and filled the resulting vacuum with its technocratic mind-set. The idea was that we could turn stones into bread; instead, our "aid" has only given stones in place of bread. The issue is the primacy of God!

Sorry, I just got excited when I realized where this was going!! It looks like America is not the wonderful place that we thought it was! We are guilty of substituting power and goods for God! I know I see this taking place but to actually understand it in the larger picture is something else!

Feel free to correct me if you think that I am wrong.

[GraceSofia]

Re: Chapter One

Originally Posted by DesertSister62

You know, I have read the Bible through a couple of times and yet somehow I missed that He took our sins into the water with him in His Baptism! Iguess I just had it in my mind that he took them onto himself at His crucifixion only. I also missed the fact that He was praying during His baptism! For me this just goes to show how much we miss when we only read through something a couple of times!

I had missed just about everything that Pope Benedict pointed out to do with the baptism. I think I thought that Jesus got baptized to give us an example, to be a model as it were.

I was blown away by the first paragraph on p. 18 on this topic. This was all new stuff for me:

"Jesus loaded the burden of all mankind's guilt on his shoulders; he bore it down into the depths of the Jordan. He inaugurated his public activity by stepping into the place of sinners. His inaugural gesture is an anticipation of the Cross. ....The whole significance of Jesus' Baptism, the fact that he bears "all righteousness," first comes to light on the Cross: The Baptism is an acceptance of death for the sins of humanity, and the voice that calls out "This is my beloved Son" over the baptismal waters ias an anticipatory reference to the Resurrection. This also explains why, in his own discourses, Jesus uses the word baptism to refer to his death ..."

I did come across a couple of things, though, that I really hadn't known. Did you know that the Sadducees disappeared after the destruction of Jerusalem? They were from the aristocracy and priestly class and attempted to practice an "enlightened Judaism, intellectually suited to the times." Sort of like those in our country that are more liberal. I thought it was very telling that "the Pharisees endeavored to live with the greatest possible exactness according to the instructions of the Torah and they refused conformity to the hegemony of Hellenistic Roman culture" and yet they continued to survive. I thought that maybe there was a lesson in there for us all!

Hhmmm... yes, probably a moral in there for all Christians. Not to be conformed to the world.

[GraceSofia]

DS and All,

Okay, I decided I'd better put away my other book and focus on Jesus of Nazareth, so I will be keeping up better now. I will go right into chapter 2.

Another thing that impressed me about chapter one was that Pope Benedict squashed the idea that Jesus didn't know who He was until his baptism; he says that it was not a "vocational experience." (p. 23)

He mentioned the great emphasis placed on Epiphany, January 6, in Orthodox countries, and I have observed that. It is always a holiday in Greece and Cyprus and a very important day.

[GraceSofia]

Re: Chapter 2

Originally Posted by DesertSister62

Benedict uses as an example, the last paragraph on page 33. I don't know about you but it really caught my attention tonight! Here it is:

"The aid offered by the West to developing countries has been purely technically and materially based, and not only has left God out of the picture, but has driven men away from God. And this aid, proudly claiming to "know better," is itself what first turned the "third world" into what we mean today by that term. It has thrust aside indigenous religious, ethical, and social structures and filled the resulting vacuum with its technocratic mind-set. The idea was that we could turn stones into bread; instead, our "aid" has only given stones in place of bread. The issue is the primacy of God!

Sorry, I just got excited when I realized where this was going!! It looks like America is not the wonderful place that we thought it was! We are guilty of substituting power and goods for God! I know I see this taking place but to actually understand it in the larger picture is something else!

Feel free to correct me if you think that I am wrong.

I didn't really understand what he was saying.. Okay, I understand what he is saying is that God is most important, but how do you give aid to the Thirld World with God first? What has the West done wrong? There has been a lot of criticism of agencies like Samaritan's Purse (Protestant) for giving aid in combination with evangelizing. Criticism from Westerners as well as Easterners. How else could we do aid? How do Catholic Charities provide aid? Anybody know?

I don't like it when the Red Cross gives aid money to Muslims and they then distribute it as if it came from the Red Crescent.

[GraceSofia]

Re: Chapter 2 (The First Temptation)

The "bread motif" in the Gospel didn't really stand out for me until I became Catholic, and then it was so obvious that I wondered how I (and others) could miss it!

This is a beautiful image:
"He himself has become bread for us, and this multiplication of the loaves endures until the end of time, without ever being depleted." (p. 33)

Any thoughts or comments on the Temptations?

[GraceSofia]

Re: Chapter 2 (The Second Temptation) pp. 34-38

Thought I would offer some questions to hopefully prompt some talk.

~ How does the devil present himself, or what role does he play in this scene?

~ What does Pope Benedict say this debate is really about?

~ What salvation event is foreshadowed by this temptation? ( As the First Temptation foreshadows the Multiplication of the Loaves and the Institution of the Eucharist).

[DesertSister62]

Hi GraceSofia,

The whole conversation of the second temptation takes the form of a dispute between two Bible scholars. Satan can quote the scripture exactly but the fact is that scriptural exegesis can become a tool of the Antichrist! This is not a rejection of scholarly biblical interpretation as such, but an eminently salutary and necessary warning against its possible aberrations.

Benedict says that the theological debate between Jesus and the devil is a dispute over the correct interpretation of Scripture, and it is relevant to every period of history.

The issue at stake in this second temptation has been summed up under the motif of "bread and circuses." The idea is that after bread has been provided a spectacle has to be offered, too. Since mere bodily satisfaction is obviously not enough for man, so this interpretation goes, those who refuse to let God have anything to do with the world and with man are forced to provide the titillation of exciting stimuli, the thrill of which replaces religious awe and drives it away.

The point at issue is revealed in Jesus answer, which is also taken from Deuteronomy: "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test." This passage alludes to the story of how Israel almost perished of thirst in the desert. Israel rebels against Moses, and in so doing rebels against God. God has to prove that he is God. The Bible describes this rebellion against God as follows: "They put the Lord to the proof by saying, "Is the Lord among us or not?"

The arrogance that would make God an object and impose our laboratory conditions upon him is incapable of finding him. For it already implies that we deny God as God by placing ourselves above him..."

The real meaning of Psalm 91 from which the quoted scripture comes from, has to do with the right to the ultimate and unlimited trust of which the Psalm speaks: "If you follow the will of God, you know that in spite of all the terrible things that happen to you, you will never lose a final refuge.

However, in all of this I could not find a Salvation event forshadowed by this temptation. Unless you mean where we discover that we have a belief in God as He is revealed in scripture and we then reach out to him in faith.

DesertSister62

[catholictiger]

just quickly i'm sorry i haven't been discussing this as much recently i've been super busy with things just got back from a retreat have studying to do all week which involves a good bit of reading so hopefully I can catch up with you guys but it may be though