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  #1  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:19 pm
faithlovehope25 faithlovehope25 is offline
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Default Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

I understand that the Church now teaches that indulgences are by no means a way to buy salvation into Heaven and that they are only an extra remission of sins that have already been forgiven.

However when Leo X began the vast selling of indulgences, were they sold in the context that one could buy their way into Heaven?

I am currently learning about this subject and the Protestant Reformation in school, and I am basically taught that the Pope completely distorted the true meaning of an indulgence and abused it and I wanted to set things straight because I don't feel like this the truth in its entirety.

Thanks and God bless,
- Michael
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  #2  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:24 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithlovehope25 View Post
I understand that the Church now teaches that indulgences are by no means a way to buy salvation into Heaven and that they are only an extra remission of sins that have already been forgiven.

However when Leo X began the vast selling of indulgences, were they sold in the context that one could buy their way into Heaven?

I am currently learning about this subject and the Protestant Reformation in school, and I am basically taught that the Pope completely distorted the true meaning of an indulgence and abused it and I wanted to set things straight because I don't feel like this the truth in its entirety.

Thanks and God bless,
- Michael
Why don't you feel it is the truth in entirety?

Popes can sin like crazy. Did he make it dogma to buy the worthless pieces of paper? If not, he can sin like that.
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  #3  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:31 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithlovehope25 View Post
I understand that the Church now teaches that indulgences are by no means a way to buy salvation into Heaven and that they are only an extra remission of sins that have already been forgiven.
Now? It has never been otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithlovehope25 View Post
However when Leo X began the vast selling of indulgences,
He did not "begin the vast selling of indulgences."

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithlovehope25 View Post
were they sold in the context that one could buy their way into Heaven?
Indulgences were not sold, during the Reformation or otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithlovehope25 View Post
I don't feel like this the truth in its entirety.
Or rather, not the truth at all.
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  #4  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:42 pm
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Alexander Smith Alexander Smith is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawberryJam View Post
Why don't you feel it is the truth in entirety?

Popes can sin like crazy. Did he make it dogma to buy the worthless pieces of paper? If not, he can sin like that.
Because modern schools greatly distort the truth to paint the Catholic Church as an evil institution that lacks any kind of tolerance, and is puritan to the core.

Anything you hear about the Catholic Church in school should be cross checked. Heck, they even took the 2000-3000 deaths during the Spanish Inquisition, and made it out to be millions of people dying at the hands of Bishops and Cardinals.

Same with "Hitler's Pope", Galileo, and most especially, the Crusades. When school systems take a series of just wars and turn them into a monstrous slaughter of Muslims by Christians, you know something is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Now? It has never been otherwise.

He did not "begin the vast selling of indulgences."

Indulgences were not sold, during the Reformation or otherwise.

Or rather, not the truth at all.
I don't disagree, but you should quote, or link to some sources. Nobody should take anybody's word online.

Don't be hard the OP, he/she is just asking an honest question.
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  #5  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:43 pm
tester tester is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post

Indulgences were not sold, during the Reformation or otherwise.


.


In the spirit of Truth: Will other Catholics correct this statement?
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  #6  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:45 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by tester View Post
In the spirit of Truth: Will other Catholics correct this statement?
Let's let that one go for now.

We still need to know what the objection really is here. Is the objection that a pope would never sin like crazy? How can we rule that out?

We have to keep questioning the OP to find motive.
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There is nothing that a non believer can not do that a believer can do.
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  #7  
Old Sep 27, '10, 6:51 pm
faithlovehope25 faithlovehope25 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

These are one of the documentaries that we watched:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmNbecu1V6I

The documentary in its entirety is not really biased nor anti-Catholic so I am confused as to what is the truth.

We watched the clip from 36:00 to 37:22 which talks about the "unparalleled selling of indulgences" by Leo X, and that "the selling of salvation was a goldmine for the Pope." I thought indulgences were only the extra remission of a sin already forgiven? Or were the indulgences not sold in this context?

- Michael
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  #8  
Old Sep 27, '10, 7:00 pm
tester tester is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

are you telling me that in an Apologetics forum a Catholic with over 12000 postings can say something like

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Indulgences were not sold, during the Reformation or otherwise.
and this is the response?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StrawberryJam View Post
Let's let that one go for now.

.
Integrity please?

Quote:
or link to some sources. Nobody should take anybody's word online.


do you need a Protestant to link you back to Catholic Encyclopedia? or quotes from the
Pope?
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  #9  
Old Sep 27, '10, 7:58 pm
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runningdude runningdude is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Oy.

What I've heard was that indulgences were never meant or authorized to be "sold", but that unscrupulous profiteers often sold counterfeit indulgences with ridiculous claims for obscene amounts of money.

That being said, I've also read that there was required act or prayer or other contribution. Kings, nobles, etc were expected to be extra-generous do to their sometimes obscene wealth, however, all that was required of peasants were special prayers offered.
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  #10  
Old Sep 27, '10, 8:03 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by runningdude View Post
Oy.

What I've heard was that indulgences were never meant or authorized to be "sold", but that unscrupulous profiteers often sold counterfeit indulgences with ridiculous claims for obscene amounts of money.

That being said, I've also read that there was required act or prayer or other contribution. Kings, nobles, etc were expected to be extra-generous do to their sometimes obscene wealth, however, all that was required of peasants were special prayers offered.
Even if what you claim is half true, who communicated to Kings and nobles to do such a thing to begin with? Who would have that ability?
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It's nothing to get hung about.

There is nothing that a non believer can not do that a believer can do.
You can not tell me that believers have some special way of doing good. They can't and don't have any superiority in goodness
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  #11  
Old Sep 27, '10, 11:18 pm
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

From 'The Roots of the Reformation' by Karl Adam

Omne malum a clero--every evil comes from the clergy. As early as 1245 at the Council of Lyons, Pope Innocent IV had called the sins of the higher and lower clergy one of the five wounds in the Body of the Church, and at the second Council of Lyons in 1274 Gregory X declared that the wickedness of many prelates was the cause of the ruin of the whole world (cf. Bihlmeyer, vol. ii, p. 336).

In this waste of clerical corruption it was impossible for the spirit of our Lord to penetrate into the people, take root there and bring true religion to flower. Since there was at this time no catechism of infants, the sermons on Sundays and feast-days were the chief sources from which the laity drew their religious education. And these sources were often choked up. Since at this time, moreover, as during the whole of the Middle Ages, Communion was very infrequent outside the ranks of the mystics, there was no sacramental impulse towards an interiorizing and deepening of religion. So the attention of the faithful was directed towards externals. Religion was materialized. Pious interest was focused more on the "holy things"--relics--than on the sacraments, more on pilgrimages and flagellations than on attending the services of the Church, and most of all on indulgences.

The cult of relics and indulgences had grown to gigantic proportions since Leo X had attached indulgences of a thousand, ten thousand and a hundred thousand years to the veneration of relics. Erasmus criticized this kind of piety in the bitter words: "We kiss the shoes of the saints and their dirty kerchiefs while we leave their writings, their holiest and truest relics, to lie unread" (Lortz, vol. i, p. 108). Frederick the Wise, the famous protector of Luther, had built up his treasury of relics in the Castle Church at Wittenburg to 18,885 fragments. Anyone who believed in and venerated them could gain indulgences amounting to two million years. When Boniface IX made of ecclesiastical indulgences what looked like a commercial traffic, even secular princes and cities became eager to take part in the distribution of them, so as to assure for themselves a generous share of the inflowing money.

From the middle of the fifteenth century the Popes began to distribute indulgences for the dead. The Legate Peraudi, in connection with an indulgence granted by Pope Sixtus IV to Louis XI for the whole of France, announces that the indulgence could be made certainly effective for any soul in purgatory, even if the person gaining it were in a state of mortal sin, so long as the indulgenced work (i.e., money payment) were performed. Pope Sixtus IV did indeed correct his legate's declaration to the extent of saying that the application of the indulgence to the dead could only be a matter of petition, not of certainty. But Peraudi's other statement--that the indulgence could be gained for the dead by people living in mortal sin--was never censured. In the prevailing low state of clerical education, preachers of the indulgence (such as the Dominican Tetzel for instance) eagerly seized on Peraudi's pronouncement, so that many preachers really did adopt as their favourite tag: "Your cash no sooner clinks in the bowl than out of purgatory jumps the soul." Some of the papal decrees themselves were in great measure responsible for this crude interpretation of indulgences. They employed a misleading formula current from the thirteenth century onwards which spoke of a remissio a poena et culpa (remission of pain and guilt) or even of a remissio peccatorum (remission of sins), whereas an indulgence is not concerned with the forgiveness of the guilt of sin, nor with the remission of eternal punishment, but only with the remission of temporal punishment, that is, a mitigation or shortening of that penitential suffering which the sinner must undergo either here or in purgatory.
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  #12  
Old Sep 28, '10, 12:21 am
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Anyone who actually believes that indulgences were not sold in the Middle Ages...

Exhibit A: Johann Tetzel! "As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs."



How do we think St. Peter's Basillica got built? The $$$ from indulgences. Luther didn't get all riled up for nothing!
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  #13  
Old Sep 28, '10, 1:01 am
Redbaron998 Redbaron998 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Indulgences were sold by folks such as Tetzel but it was not a straight money transaction. The Indulgence was given for the act of charity such as giving money so St Peters could be fixed up nice.

It is true there was not straight up Indulgence for Money transactions, they were tied to an act of charity. (some of which could involve money like the St Peters thing) The vast majority of Indulgences were given for pilgramages and the prayers.

Granted giving money for building St Peters was pushing it and many Bishops and Priests agreed and were trying to fix it, of course this was no excuse to cause a revolt like Luther did.

This all culminated in the Council of Trent whitch forbade any money transactions when dealing with indulgences. Was indulgences abused? Yes. Did the Luther have a problem with this? Yes. Did the Church agree it was being abused and fix it? Yes.
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  #14  
Old Sep 28, '10, 1:06 am
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JM3 JM3 is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithlovehope25 View Post
These are one of the documentaries that we watched:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmNbecu1V6I

The documentary in its entirety is not really biased nor anti-Catholic so I am confused as to what is the truth.

We watched the clip from 36:00 to 37:22 which talks about the "unparalleled selling of indulgences" by Leo X, and that "the selling of salvation was a goldmine for the Pope." I thought indulgences were only the extra remission of a sin already forgiven? Or were the indulgences not sold in this context?

- Michael

Saying the Popes are like the Godfather in the movies? Yeah, I'd say it's anti-catholic.

Filled with half-truths and made up truths. It shows what you can come up with when you impose your culture on another culture.

It's the main reason I don't watch PBS anymore.
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  #15  
Old Sep 28, '10, 1:13 am
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Church Militant Church Militant is offline
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Default Re: Pope Leo X and the selling of indulgences

Maybe these articles will help.



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