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  #1  
Old Oct 5, '10, 11:59 am
flatlanderjenn flatlanderjenn is offline
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Exclamation 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

Hello!

I'm having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.

In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

She says St Paul originally wrote "effeminate," not "sodomites" and not "homosexual" like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.

Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?

Do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:20 pm
Dave in Dallas Dave in Dallas is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10,

Here's some help:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Earl...osexuality.asp

The greek "arsenkoites" or something close to that ties in with Leviticus 18:22-30 if I remember correctly. Yes it seems to be a word that Paul created... but it ties directly to the Leviticus passage.

I've heard professors/pastors quote as saying that we have no idea what it could possiblly mean... I call that dishonest in attempt to push their agenda...

It's pretty clear that the church has always taught it's wrong....
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  #3  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:32 pm
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

You could also support your interpretation by pointing out that Paul condemns homosexual behavior elsewhere:
Romans 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
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  #4  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:37 pm
PatrickSebast PatrickSebast is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

Well "effeminate" was written (or a word similar to it anyway), but it is a separate term from the word translated as "homosexual" which is why many translations have both effiminate and homosexuals listed as people who will not inherit the kingdom.

The actual word used in the original greek and translated to homosexual is "arsenokoitai" which is a very difficult word for translators because St.Paul's writings are the first time it appears in any known greek text. While the idea that it refers to some form of homosexual action has a strong possibility of being accurate the condemnation is almost certainly exclusive to male homosexuals since the root word "Arsen" refers specifically to males. Some would even say that the word is a reference to the greek translation of the leviticus passage regarding men laying with men since the words Arsen and Koitai are in very close proximity in that verse. I am no scholar though, I only gain my knowledge from knowing a couple, so I can't really give you much more information than that.
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  #5  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:40 pm
colmcille1 colmcille1 is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlanderjenn View Post
Hello!
I'm having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.
In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:
"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."
She says St Paul originally wrote "effeminate," not "sodomites" and not "homosexual" like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.
Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?
Do you have any suggestions for me?
Thanks.
Hi flatlanderjehn,
A good topic. I do not have the Latin or Greek translations but, if it is of any help, here is what both the D-R and Knox Bibles say:

D-R : (9) 'Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, (10) Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.'

Knox: (9) 'You will know well enough that wrong-doers will not inherit God's kingdom. Make no mistake about it; it is not the debauched, the idolaters, the adulterous,
(10) it is not the effeminate, the sinners against nature, the dishonest, the misers, the drunkards, the bitter of speech, the extortioners that will inherit the kingdom of God.'

I have italicized what I believe to be the relevant terms. I think the meaning of homosexual activity is clear in both translations.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
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  #6  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:44 pm
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manygift1spirit manygift1spirit is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

I believe it was Catholic Answers Live about six months ago when a caller had a question about those translations. In particular, the caller had just tried to parse what the most literal translation of the word usually phrased as "sodomite" was.

As he was about to say it, the host jumped in "Waaaait wait a minute you can't say that on the air." The caller paused for a second and said something like "Oh yeah you're right"

Nuff said.
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  #7  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:47 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

No doubt, you will also hear from her that Sodom was destroyed for its lack of hospitality to strangers.

Certainly not because the men of the city were homosexual / bisexuals who patrolled the houses at night forcibly raping men.
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  #8  
Old Oct 5, '10, 12:51 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

When protestant denominations ordain noncelibate same sex attracted and gay partnered priests and priestesses, it becomes vitally important to change the meaning of the biblical texts to fit their lifestyles.
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  #9  
Old Oct 5, '10, 1:06 pm
Dave Noonan Dave Noonan is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlanderjenn View Post
Hello!

I'm having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.

In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

She says St Paul originally wrote "effeminate," not "sodomites" and not "homosexual" like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.

Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?

Do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks.
The words involved are "malakos" and "arsenokoites" (which seems to be a combination of "arsen" and the verb "keimai").

"Malakos" has a very wide range of meanings--the most basic of which is "soft." The word can mean "soft" in the sense of: cowardly, lacking in morality or self-control, gentle, mild or effeminate. As far as I know, the only other place this word appears in the Septuagint is in Prov 25:15 and Prov 26:22.

"arsen" simply means "male" or "masculine"--pretty straightforward. "kaimai" means "to lie down" (not necessarily with sexual connotations) but is used in the Septuagint translation of Lev. 18 to describe sexual relations. As I recall, Paul's use here is the first historical record of this word.

If you compare the various English translations, I imagine they will be all over the map; as I recall, Luther even translated the word as "child abusers." The Vulgate has "molles neque masculorum concubitores": "soft ones" (same as Greek) and something like "bedfellowers of men"—again occurring only in 1 Cor 6:10 and 1 Tim 1:10.

You can look up the words at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper<...?redirect=true if you find a dictionary helpful for your discussion.

I'm sure that there is a ton of information available on the Internet about these verses.
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  #10  
Old Oct 5, '10, 4:00 pm
James224 James224 is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Dallas View Post
Here's some help:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Earl...osexuality.asp

The greek "arsenkoites" or something close to that ties in with Leviticus 18:22-30 if I remember correctly. Yes it seems to be a word that Paul created... but it ties directly to the Leviticus passage.

I've heard professors/pastors quote as saying that we have no idea what it could possiblly mean... I call that dishonest in attempt to push their agenda...

It's pretty clear that the church has always taught it's wrong....
The Nestle-Aland Greek Morphology uses:

ἀρσενοκοῖταιἀρσενοκοίτηςmale bed partnersNNPM 88.280


The DRV says, "Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God."

Notice: "Liers" doesn't mean "Liars" but, rather, those men who lie down with other men.

So, you are right. Also, I like to use Rom 1:27-28.
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  #11  
Old Oct 5, '10, 4:11 pm
James224 James224 is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10,

Quote:
Originally Posted by James224 View Post
The Nestle-Aland Greek Morphology uses:

ἀρσενοκοῖταιἀρσενοκοίτηςmale bed partnersNNPM 88.280


The DRV says, "Nor the effeminate nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God."

Notice: "Liers" doesn't mean "Liars" but, rather, those men who lie down with other men.

So, you are right. Also, I like to use Rom 1:27-28.
To add to this it already uses "Adulterers" in verse 9 so it cannot be referring to Men who lie down with women.
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  #12  
Old Oct 6, '10, 10:34 am
Oldtimer_7 Oldtimer_7 is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

You will have to grant your opponent this: the Bible does not deal with homosexuality, just as it does not deal with heterosexuality. It deals with behaviors. A man can have sex with another man and not consider himself homosexual. A woman can have sex with a man and not be heterosexual. Prostitutes are prime examples. Regardless of the modern idea of sexual orientation, such behaviors are consistently condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.

Looking at it another way, there is no differentiation in Greek between man and husband. The same word, aner, is used for both. The same is true for woman and wife. The word gyne means both. This is what creates the variation in translation of 1 Timothy 3:2. The cultural assumption we can infer from this is that the norm for Greek society was for men to be married to women and no other relationship.
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  #13  
Old Oct 6, '10, 10:57 am
ebcat ebcat is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

Robert Sungenis says this....

Often the Hebrew or Greek did not assign one word to describe an action or state, but used several words. For example, Hebrew did not have a word for “uncle,” and thus whenever an uncle is in view the Hebrew would describe the person as “your father’s brother.” The same was true with homosexuality. It was described by various phrases in both Hebrew and Greek. Hebrew used “a man who lies with a male” (Lv 20:13). Greek would refer to them as “abandoning the natural function of the woman” or “burning in lust towards one another, men with men” (Rm 1:27).

But at one point the Greek does, indeed, describe homosexuality with one word. In 1 Cor 9:9, St. Paul uses the word ARSENOKOITAI, stating that such persons will not inherit the kingdom of heaven: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals.” This word appears one other time in the New Testament, 1Tm 1:10: “and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.”

The Greek word ARSENOKOITAI is a combination of the words ARSEN = “male”; and KOITUS = “sexual copulation.” We have a word in English, “coitus,” which means sexual intercourse. So here we have a word in Greek that is about as precise as a word can be to describe two males having sexual relations. The word ARSENOKOITAI literally means “male sexual relations.”

We also find the word ARSENOKOITAI in classical Greek literature many years before and after the New Testament made use of the word. It appeared in the Revenue Laws of Ptolemy Philadelphus 6, 10, 25; Anthologia Palatina 9, 686, 5; and Catalogus Codicum Astrologorum Graecorum viii, 4, p. 196, 6; 8; and the Sibylene Oracles 2, 73 and Polycarp to the Philippians 5:3. The pedigree is established, and thus, any claims to “homosexuality” surfacing as merely a “nineteenth century” classification is simply fallacious.

http://catholicintl.com/epologetics/...e/bib_homo.htm
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  #14  
Old Oct 6, '10, 11:10 am
PLeeD PLeeD is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

I can only imagine that "malakos" translated as "effeminate" refers to the 2a definition listed here:

malakos
1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaphor. in a bad sense
a) effeminate
1) of a catamite
2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
4) of a male prostitute
Source:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3120&t=KJV
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  #15  
Old Oct 6, '10, 11:58 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: 1 Cor 6:9-10, Re: Sexual Activity

Quote:
=flatlanderjenn;7133865]Hello!

I'm having a debate with someone on another forum regarding homosexuality in the Bible. Although this person is not Christian, she seems to believe she comprehends meaning and translation of this passage better than Christians.

In 1 Cor 6:9-10 my NAB reads:

"Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

She says St Paul originally wrote "effeminate," not "sodomites" and not "homosexual" like some other translations. While clearly he meant homosexual activity, she is denying this.

Do you know the latin (or greek?) translations for this passage?

Do you have any suggestions for me?

Thanks.
The First Book of the Bible, Genesis

The First Chapter verse 27-28 says:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

Love and prayers,
Pat
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