Gay Catholics Don't Expect Vatican Change

[Scott_Lafrance]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Quote:

But to activists, a change in language is insufficient. "We now know without a doubt that homosexuality is a natural variation of human sexuality, but the Vatican is not there yet," Sinnett said. "The church's teachings ... are arrested in a juvenile stage."

The Vatican is not there yet because it isn't even headed in that direction.

[fix]

Originally Posted by Funky Cedars

i must wonder if you also tell your friends and others who have married more than once that they are Adulterers and those family members and others who are enjoying sex outside of marriage that they are Fornicators, so that they also know that you know what they’re really up to, as well.
and do you then pray for them? if yes, thank you, if not, please start.

I think those are fair and accurate terms. If they all were used more frequently, we may not have as much moral relativism as we do today.

[Lisa N]

Originally Posted by Genesis315

It's the pervasive quasi-universalism that's running rampant in our sociey. It basically says everyone but Hitler is going to Heaven.

Thanks for the response. That does make some sense and I believe it was Hugh Hewitt who made the same assertion. He was responding to some kind of judge's editorial about the reasons sexual sins were becoming less of an issue. The judge's theory was that since sex no longer has the same cost due to abortion and birth control, there is really no more reason to refrain from "if it feels good do it." Hewitt points out that the judge failed to note any emotional cost, the cost of divorce, the cost of single parenthood but also said that clearly fear of going to hell has diminished and so people feel justified in doing whatever they want as they will certainly make the cut.

Lisa N

[Scott_Lafrance]

Originally Posted by Genesis315

It's the pervasive quasi-universalism that's running rampant in our sociey. It basically says everyone but Hitler is going to Heaven.

Isn't that anti-Hitlerism?

[marcadam]

Originally Posted by stumbler

By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer

NEW YORK - Roman Catholic gay-rights activists don't expect a new pope to suddenly scrap the church's condemnation of homosexuality...

... and you lost me in your first clause. The church has never condemned homosexuality or homosexuals. She has (and always has) condemned sodomy, the act itself. It seems few even understand this distinction, and even among those who do many reject it. But that doesn't mean the distinction doesn't exist.

[marcadam]

Originally Posted by stumbler

Quote:

The Rev. Robert Silva, president of the Chicago-based National Federation of Priests' Councils, said activists should not expect changes in doctrine, but he did suggest that a shift in the Vatican's rhetorical tone would be welcome.

"The moral dimension of homosexuality is pretty clear over a 2000-year tradition of Catholic teaching — homosexual acts will never, ever be accepted as moral," Silva said. "But it's important to distinguish between the act and the person. A person who finds discovers himself to be gay is not a bad person. They must always be treated with justice and charity."

This is just silly. What has the church been preaching for the last 25 years? "If you are attracted to others of the same sex, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, Go Directly To Hell"? Right. The problem is that Fr. Silva stated the Church's teaching exactly, but that Homosexual activists reject even that.

[mommy]

Either you're Catholic or your not.

There's no activisim for 'changes' to the doctrine. It's not religion by committee, or religion of what feels good today.

Either you accept the church or you don't. No matter what your issue is.

You are supposed to follow it's rules, it doesn't change the rules to fit you. Period.

[Catholic Dude]

Originally Posted by Funky Cedars

...
i must wonder if you also tell your friends and others who have married more than once that they are Adulterers and those family members and others who are enjoying sex outside of marriage that they are Fornicators, so that they also know that you know what they’re really up to, as well.
and do you then pray for them? if yes, thank you, if not, please start.
for if Catholics, who are to be Jesus to the world, are willing to express such hatred for sinners like myself and count us beyond redemption, is it any wonder that so many are inclined to reject (this ugly) jesus and hold on to our sinfulness?
if Mary, Most Pure is willing to intercede on our behalf, how can our sinful brethren see fit to act otherwise?

The problem is it has come down to any remark at all towards someones sin is seen today as hatred, bigotry, etc. Jesus said if your brother sins against you rebuke him... there is nothing wrong with telling people something is wrong, and in the case of sodomy it is very very wrong. In the very first book of the Bible, from the earliest times, this sin was condemned and the cities parading this life style were reduced to ashes. Sodom and Gommorah were always mentioned and reminded people about what happened there.
The problem with the word "gay" is that it is a change of definition to cover up the vile act it really is. The original definition of gay meant happy, joyous, ect, now it has been redefined to refer to something that was once a crime in this country. Same thing goes for the word "rainbow". That was a Biblical word applied to God's mercy and love and it was redefined to mean various forms of sexual mutilation all in the name of "love".
I dont see this kind of redefining when it comes to fornication and adultery, maybe I cant think of them right off the bat. At the same time I use those terms all the time and they are perfectly appropriate.
I dont pretend sin is good, I dont judge people's eternal soul, but I dont pretend nothing is going on, especially when little kids, for example my younger brothers have to be force fed by the media and school that there is nothing wrong with those "life styles" and use the politically correct terms to report/teach about them. It has become taboo to speak out against sin, and one of the factors leading to such confusion is redefining terms.
Bottom line, dont be fooled.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by stumbler

"We're realists — we're not going to have someone running out of this conclave as pope and all of sudden everything is perfect," said Sam Sinnett, president of the national gay Catholic organization Dignity USA. "We do hope there will be a little more listening, and an end to the virulence of the anti-gay language."

Excuse me Mr. Sinnett but I believe you are engaging in slander. Can you give me a quote from the Vatican that has any "anti-gay language"?

[javelin]

Originally Posted by Funky Cedars

no it isn’t, the Church is full of sinners, for the Lord who established it came on behalf of those who needed healing. fortunately, Holy Mother Church recognizes this and so has approved of the organization Courage, which assists Her children with same-sex attractions to live chaste lives in accord with Her teachings. it is by means of Her gifts, especially Reconciliation and the Eucharist, that Her poor children who misunderstand their sexual nature, as well as those who lie, steal, even murder, can successfully travel the difficult road to salvation. therefore She seeks ways to bring us home and heal us instead of condemning us before we stand in front of ‘the awesome judgment seat’ that awaits each of us.
it is incompatible to claim to be a disciple of Jesus while advocating sin; one cannot be truly Catholic and endorse an active ‘gay lifestyle’. but being Catholic and gay is no more oxymoronic than being Catholic and judgemental.
i must wonder if you also tell your friends and others who have married more than once that they are Adulterers and those family members and others who are enjoying sex outside of marriage that they are Fornicators, so that they also know that you know what they’re really up to, as well.
and do you then pray for them? if yes, thank you, if not, please start.
for if Catholics, who are to be Jesus to the world, are willing to express such hatred for sinners like myself and count us beyond redemption, is it any wonder that so many are inclined to reject (this ugly) jesus and hold on to our sinfulness?
if Mary, Most Pure is willing to intercede on our behalf, how can our sinful brethren see fit to act otherwise?

Christ is Risen!
God be with our Cardinals as they select the next Peter!

Thank you, Funky -- I was about to go off on the same tirade when I read your message and realized I could not have put it so well. The only thing I would add is that as sinful as sodomy is, I believe it is no more sinful than masturbation, which is a sin that is not often spoken of, and committed by many (some would say most) heterosexual men who comdemn homosexuals.

It seems it is the rhetoric of certain Catholic laypeople that needs to change, rather than that of the Vatican. But the doctrine will always remain the same -- homosexual acts are immoral and sinful.

"Love the person, despise the sin." That is what is needed.

If we could always separate the two and live that phrase, we would truly be serving God as He desires.

Peace,
javelin

[Catholic Dude]

Originally Posted by javelin

Thank you, Funky -- I was about to go off on the same tirade when I read your message and realized I could not have put it so well. The only thing I would add is that as sinful as sodomy is, I believe it is no more sinful than masturbation, which is a sin that is not often spoken of, and committed by many (some would say most) heterosexual men who comdemn homosexuals.

Both are mortal sins, but there is clearly a difference in act and degree of sin. You cant say that just because it is the same type of sin they are just as bad. I shouldnt and dont want to even go into the details of why they arent the same magnitude. One is clearly worse, there is no comparison.

It seems it is the rhetoric of certain Catholic laypeople that needs to change, rather than that of the Vatican. But the doctrine will always remain the same -- homosexual acts are immoral and sinful.

"Love the person, despise the sin." That is what is needed.

If we could always separate the two and live that phrase, we would truly be serving God as He desires.

Peace,
javelin

Yes and despising the sin means make it known that that sin is wrong and not to do it. What has happened is people have become indifferent and go around with the attitude that "we all sin, so what grounds do I have to judge".

[malachy]

I think this thread has helped me decide that there is no room for me in the Catholic faith. Thanks.

[norbert]

Originally Posted by mommy

Either you're Catholic or your not.

There's no activisim for 'changes' to the doctrine. It's not religion by committee, or religion of what feels good today.

Either you accept the church or you don't. No matter what your issue is.

You are supposed to follow it's rules, it doesn't change the rules to fit you. Period.

But why does God give us these darn brains, then? Why are we allowed to think and reason for ourselves? I love and cherish the Church, but my darn mind does tend to question some of its teachings. I don't think that makes me less Catholic. I hope the Church does change its teachings some day on priestly celibacy, and women as priests, and artificial birth control, for starters, and I say that as a devout Catholic.

[Thekla]

the message on homosexuality with the strong views of humanity and social justice. It's easy to see how harsh rhetoric can lead to outright condemnation and persecution.

I've read and seen Christian churches in this country who have taken the rhetoric to extreme. I'm thinking of the Fred Phelps' of the world and their public attacks on and persecution of homosexuals.

In my opinion, the Church has not really addressed how Catholics are to balance homosexuality as a sin with the Church's opposition to discriminatory practices.

[exoflare]

Originally Posted by norbert

But why does God give us these darn brains, then? Why are we allowed to think and reason for ourselves? I love and cherish the Church, but my darn mind does tend to question some of its teachings. I don't think that makes me less Catholic. I hope the Church does change its teachings some day on priestly celibacy, and women as priests, and artificial birth control, for starters, and I say that as a devout Catholic.

Priestly celibacy: not written in stone as a dogma, but don't hold your breath on them changing it.

Women priests & artificial birth control:
IT.. WILL.. NEVER.. HAPPEN.

If you don't understand why that is, you really need to ask yourself why you're a Catholic at all.