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  #1  
Old Oct 11, '10, 3:41 pm
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Chris Etzel Chris Etzel is offline
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Default what sacraments does the Catholic Church consider valid...

...if received in a Protestant church ? I know they (we, I'm in RCIA class), accept Baptism in the Trinitarian formula. What about Marriage, Holy Orders, etc ?

References to CCC accepted. I have it handy for nightly reading. It's actually quite good.
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  #2  
Old Oct 11, '10, 3:46 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Etzel View Post
...if received in a Protestant church ? I know they (we, I'm in RCIA class), accept Baptism in the Trinitarian formula. What about Marriage, Holy Orders, etc ?

References to CCC accepted. I have it handy for nightly reading. It's actually quite good.
Only baptism can be valid from a Protestant Church. This is because baptism can be ministered by a lay person and even without any faculties from the Church. All other Sacraments need either an ordained minister such as a priest or deacon, or one who has faculties to witness for the Church, such as in marriage.
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Old Oct 11, '10, 4:07 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments does the Catholic Church consider valid...

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Originally Posted by Chris Etzel View Post
...if received in a Protestant church ? I know they (we, I'm in RCIA class), accept Baptism in the Trinitarian formula. What about Marriage, Holy Orders, etc ?
Baptism in the Trinitarian formula is valid outside the Catholic Church. The minister of this sacrament is the bishop or delegated priests. BUT, because this sacrament is necessary for salvation, the Church makes provision that anyone may baptize out of necessity. The Church determined long ago (2nd century) the baptism of heretics was valid as long as it was Trinitarian and that those seeking to join or return to the Catholic Church did not need to be re-baptized.

Marriage-- providing there are no other impediments such as a prior bond-- is also valid when entered into between two non-Catholics. The couple confers the sacrament upon each other. The priest is the witness in Catholic form, not the minister of the sacrament. The canons regarding the form of marriage apply only to Catholics or those marrying a Catholic.

All other sacraments require valid holy orders. Protestant ecclesial communities do not have valid apostolic succession (i.e., no valid bishops) and therefore do not have valid sacraments of Holy Orders, Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconciliation, or Anointing.

True Churches, such as the Orthodox, have valid apostolic succession and therefore valid sacraments.

There are a smattering of various schismatic churches that do have valid, but illicit Orders due to receiving them from other schismatic groups that have apostolic succession, and therefore in individual cases they may also be conferring valid sacraments.
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Old Oct 11, '10, 4:08 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Only baptism can be valid from a Protestant Church. This is because baptism can be ministered by a lay person and even without any faculties from the Church. All other Sacraments need either an ordained minister such as a priest or deacon, or one who has faculties to witness for the Church, such as in marriage.
This is not accurate.

Non-Catholic marriages are valid sacraments when both parties are baptized.
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  #5  
Old Oct 11, '10, 4:17 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

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This is not accurate.

Non-Catholic marriages are valid sacraments when both parties are baptized.
No, they are valid marriages but not Sacramental. Only in the presence of a valid witness of the Church or through proper dispensation can a marriage be Sacramental.
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Old Oct 11, '10, 4:33 pm
Phemie Phemie is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

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No, they are valid marriages but not Sacramental. Only in the presence of a valid witness of the Church or through proper dispensation can a marriage be Sacramental.
Not so. Remember that we are talking about what sacraments conferred upon non-Catholics in their own church the Catholic Church consider valid. That would be Trinitarian baptism and a marriage without impediment.
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Old Oct 11, '10, 4:35 pm
Spirithound Spirithound is offline
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No, they are valid marriages but not Sacramental. Only in the presence of a valid witness of the Church or through proper dispensation can a marriage be Sacramental.
Valid marriages between baptized individuals are always automatically sacramental.

Quote:
Can. 1055 1. The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.

2. For this reason, a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM
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Old Oct 11, '10, 4:40 pm
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
No, they are valid marriages but not Sacramental. Only in the presence of a valid witness of the Church or through proper dispensation can a marriage be Sacramental.
The latin Catholic Church recognizes the marriages of baptized non-Catholics (no other impediments, yada, yada, yada...) as sacramental as well as valid. That is because in the latin rite the couple confers the sacrament on each other. So baptized non-Catholics can sacramentally marry each other. Non-Catholics are not bound to the Catholic form so they are more or less in the same boat --er maybe that should be "ocean"-- as Catholics with dispensations from Catholic form.

This is different from the Eastern view of marriage. (I believe both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox hold similar views about who confers the sacrament.)
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  #9  
Old Oct 11, '10, 4:43 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

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This is different from the Eastern view of marriage. (I believe both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox hold similar views about who confers the sacrament.)
Yes, in the Eastern Catholic Churches there is the added requirement of the blessing of the priest, this is why a deacon can not witness a marraige in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
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  #10  
Old Oct 11, '10, 5:13 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments do Catholics consider valid...

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
No, they are valid marriages but not Sacramental.
Nope.

Can. 1055 1. The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring, has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament between the baptized.

2. For this reason, a valid matrimonial contract cannot exist between the baptized without it being by that fact a sacrament.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Only in the presence of a valid witness of the Church or through proper dispensation can a marriage be Sacramental.
Nope.

Can. 11 Merely ecclesiastical laws bind those who have been baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it, possess the efficient use of reason, and, unless the law expressly provides otherwise, have completed seven years of age.

Can. 1057 1. The consent of the parties, legitimately manifested between persons qualified by law, makes marriage; no human power is able to supply this consent.

Can. 1059 Even if only one party is Catholic, the marriage of Catholics is governed not only by divine law but also by canon law, without prejudice to the competence of civil authority concerning the merely civil effects of the same marriage.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #11  
Old Oct 11, '10, 5:55 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: what sacraments does the Catholic Church consider valid...

Sacrament Orthodox and Assyrian Churches Trinitarian Protestant Jesus Name Protestant / LDS
BaptismXX 
ConfirmationX  
EucharistX  
MatrimonyXXX (valid but not sacramental)
PenanceX  
AnointingX  
Holy OrdersX  
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