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  #1  
Old Oct 11, '10, 9:24 pm
chaldobyzantine chaldobyzantine is offline
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Religion: Eastern Catholicism (I prefer Eastern Orthodox theology)
Default Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Due to the current special Middle Eastern Synod of the Catholic Church, I remembered something I've found strange. The non-liturgical vestments of Oriental Catholic Patriarchs and Bishops don't match their Orthodox counterparts.

For example, the Coptic Catholic Patriarch wears a klobuk that most Eastern Orthodox bishops wear. Syriac Catholic Patriarch Joseph III Younan wears a Greek Kamilavkion that Eastern Orthodox priests wear. Here he is sitting next to the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, whose vestments are similar to the Coptic Pope.


Usually I'm used to (but shouldn't be) Latinizations like Chaldean and Maronite bishops wearing Latin vestments and mitres, but this is confusing because they use Greek alternatives. Are there other cases where Greek traditions replace Oriental ones?

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Last edited by chaldobyzantine; Oct 11, '10 at 9:36 pm.
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  #2  
Old Oct 11, '10, 11:08 pm
bkayw bkayw is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Pope Benedict's Mass was on EWTN this weekend and I belive Orthodox Catholics were attending. The priests were wearing black vestments with raising pointed black hoods. It was difficult to see their faces.

A Lutheran friend of mine wanted to know why the KKK were invited to the Mass.
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  #3  
Old Oct 12, '10, 6:26 am
ag_vn ag_vn is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaldobyzantine View Post
Due to the current special Middle Eastern Synod of the Catholic Church, I remembered something I've found strange. The non-liturgical vestments of Oriental Catholic Patriarchs and Bishops don't match their Orthodox counterparts.

For example, the Coptic Catholic Patriarch wears a klobuk that most Eastern Orthodox bishops wear. Syriac Catholic Patriarch Joseph III Younan wears a Greek Kamilavkion that Eastern Orthodox priests wear. Here he is sitting next to the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, whose vestments are similar to the Coptic Pope.

Usually I'm used to (but shouldn't be) Latinizations like Chaldean and Maronite bishops wearing Latin vestments and mitres, but this is confusing because they use Greek alternatives. Are there other cases where Greek traditions replace Oriental ones?
Syriac Catholic bishops also wear Latin mitres, not only the Chaldeans and the Maronites.

Armenian Catholic bishops don't wear the typical non-liturgical headgear of the Armenian Orthodox bishops, but a klobuk.
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  #4  
Old Oct 22, '10, 8:50 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaldobyzantine View Post
Syriac Catholic Patriarch Joseph III Younan wears a Greek Kamilavkion that Eastern Orthodox priests wear. Here he is sitting next to the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, whose vestments are similar to the Coptic Pope.

.
The only significant difference between the two patriarchs is the wearing of the kamilavkion by His Beatitude Joseph III Younan and the number of crosses each wears.

Both are wearing the exorasson (outer black robe with red lining) and the Roman cassock, except that the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch wears it in red.
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  #5  
Old Oct 22, '10, 8:53 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkayw View Post
Pope Benedict's Mass was on EWTN this weekend and I belive Orthodox Catholics were attending. The priests were wearing black vestments with raising pointed black hoods. It was difficult to see their faces.

A Lutheran friend of mine wanted to know why the KKK were invited to the Mass.
They were Armenian Orthodox wearing the pakegh.
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  #6  
Old Oct 27, '10, 2:46 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

I've been searching through the internet and have found images of Syriac Orthodox priests wearing the kamilavkion.

Here they are:

http://picasaweb.google.com/theortho...29648887625730

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...ThksqPNld7MRY= (Malankara Orthodox)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urch-Mosul.jpg (monk on the left hand side beside wall)

and last but certainly not least, photos of the current Syriac Patriarch himself wearing one when he was a young man: http://www.syrianchurch.org/pzakka/PhotoGallery2.htm

So, is the kamilavkion part of Syriac attire since even the Syriac Orthodox use it as well?
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  #7  
Old Oct 27, '10, 3:15 pm
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Quote:
Originally Posted by griego catolico View Post
I've been searching through the internet and have found images of Syriac Orthodox priests wearing the kamilavkion.

Here they are: ...

and last but certainly not least, photos of the current Syriac Patriarch himself wearing one when he was a young man: http://www.syrianchurch.org/pzakka/PhotoGallery2.htm

So, is the kamilavkion part of Syriac attire since even the Syriac Orthodox use it as well?
I won't comment on any of the particular photos except to say that those of Mar Zakka in the last link are quite old, and it's likely that he was not a bishop at that time.

In any case, I think the operative word here is "priest" whereas the topic of this thread is "bishops." I'm not an expert on SOC fashion, but to my knowledge, non-monastic SOC priests do not have specific headwear for non-liturgical use. Nor, to my knowledge, do SCC priests. (The Maronite secular clergy most definitely do, but that's irrelevant to this post.) If mu assumption is correct, it would follow that, if a SOC priest adopted the Greek kamilavkion (or, for that matter, the Roman biretta), it would be more of a personal thing. If it's not correct, I'd appreciate a link to something official explaining the otherwise.
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  #8  
Old Feb 10, '13, 12:11 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Quote:
Originally Posted by griego catolico View Post
They were Armenian Orthodox wearing the pakegh.
My bad. It is called the veghar.
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  #9  
Old Feb 10, '13, 12:18 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkayw View Post
A Lutheran friend of mine wanted to know why the KKK were invited to the Mass.
Maybe reminding him that the KKK don't wear black would be a simple place to start.
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  #10  
Old Feb 13, '13, 7:00 am
Sybok Sybok is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

I think it comes from the Ottoman Empire where in the millet system different clothing was required for each religous group
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  #11  
Old Feb 15, '13, 7:30 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

A comparison of the clerical clothing between the bishops of the Syriac Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox Church:

Syriac Catholic bishops

Larger image: http://www.syr-cath.org/catalogs/fullpic/3503.jpg

Syriac Orthodox bishops

Larger image: http://www.soc-wus.org/images/synod%202007.jpg

Both groups wear the red button cassock, but the Syriac Orthodox patriarch and bishops wear an outer cassock over it. Several of the Syriac Catholic bishops are lacking the outer cassock.
As for headgear, the Syriac Catholic patriarch and bishops need to replace the kamilavkion and zucchettos with the koob'uono (turban).

Last edited by griego catolico; Feb 15, '13 at 7:45 pm.
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  #12  
Old Feb 15, '13, 9:10 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

A comparison of the clerical clothing between the bishops of the Armenian Catholic Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church:

Armenian Catholic bishops

Larger image: http://www.abouna.org/sites/default/...ty/image/1.jpg

Armenian Apostolic bishops

Larger image: http://www.armenianchurch.org/resour...eb%20Photo.jpg

A very noticeable difference between the two groups is the lack of the veghar (pointed hood) among the Armenian Catholic bishops. However, some of the Armenian Catholic bishops have begun wearing the purple-lined Armenian cassock---although a few still wear the Roman cassock with the red-lined Syriac outer cassock.

Credit must be given to His Beatitude Nerses Petros XIX Tarmouni whose clerical clothing is almost exactly like his Armenian Apostolic counterparts, with the exception of the klobuk. Here he is with Armenian Apostolic Catholicos Aram I:


Source: http://www.armeniancatholic.org/insi...d=14&newsID=49

Still, it is a welcome change from the clothing of his recent predecessors, who would wear the Roman cassock with zucchetto, then wear over it a Syriac cassock and top it off with a red klobuk!
Larger photo

I hope one day to see the veghar being worn among the Armenian Catholic clergy.
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  #13  
Old Feb 21, '13, 12:09 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

A comparison of the clerical clothing between the bishops of the Coptic Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church:

Coptic Catholic bishops

Larger image: http://www.coptcatholic.net/thumb.ph...f49491ef65.jpg

Coptic Orthodox bishops

Larger image:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nj1ub7NWI9...e+Tawadros.jpg

One can easily mistake the Coptic Catholic bishops for Byzantine bishops based on the wearing of klobuks and engolpions. The Coptic Orthodox bishops wear the Coptic emma and Coptic cross.

The use of the klobuk by the Coptic Catholic hierarchy appears to go as far back as the first Coptic Catholic patriarch:


Some Coptic Catholic patriarchs would wear the Roman cassock with red fascia with the Syriac outer cassock or, if becoming cardinal, would wear them in red:


Very different from the clerical clothing of a Coptic Orthodox pope:
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  #14  
Old Feb 22, '13, 11:48 am
dzheremi dzheremi is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

Maybe Rome doesn't want the Coptic Catholics thinking that they have a Pope...
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  #15  
Old Feb 23, '13, 10:08 pm
griego catolico griego catolico is offline
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Default Re: Confusing vestments of Oriental Catholic Bishops

A comparison of the clerical clothing between the bishops of the Ethiopian (Ge'ez) Catholic Church and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church:

Ethiopian Catholic bishops (those wearing the red-purple Qob)

Larger image:http://catholicethiopia.org/images/xfade/DSC_0195.JPG
Another image:http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...34691590_n.jpg

Ethiopian Orthodox bishops

Larger image: http://theorthodoxchurch.info/main/w...YNOD-2.jpg.jpg


The late Ethiopian Orthodox Catholicos, Paulos I, (center) with the Ethiopian (Ge'ez) Catholic Metropolitan Archbishop, Abune Berhaneyesus Souraphiel, CM (right).
Larger image: http://catholicethiopia.org/images/xfade/DSC_0319.JPG

The differences are quite apparent with the Ethiopian Catholic hierarchy wearing Roman cassocks, fascias, and shoulder capes.
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