Catholic FAQ


Help support Catholic Answers!

Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Oct 12, '10, 12:03 pm
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Posts: 6,156
Religion: Catholic
Default The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

I was talking with a JW and he was trying to prove to me the Bible teaches Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Many are aware the JWs officially teach this. (It is one of the weakest claims ever, wholly unbibilcal.)

Anyway, as he was (desperately) attempting to string together a bunch of texts, one of the "proofs" he gave me was from Revelation 9 (especially verse 11):
1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon ["Destroyer"].
While I have never read or heard of this verse before, I was totally STUNNED after reading this, since this "angel of the Abyss" named "Abaddon" is clearly a demonic angel, if not Satan himself.

I was just as shocked by the fact I don't see anyone talking about this, even Catholic.com's articles. There turned out to be a few lone google hits, but not much...but what gives?

I found this Wiki ariticle on Abaddon, and here is what it says:
In the past Jehovah's Witnesses shared the idea that Abaddon was Satan.[14] Modern Jehovah's Witnesses take the contrasting view, believing that Abaddon is a name given to Jesus.[15][16]
I verified this latter point myself (but not the former), it is official JW teaching that Jesus is Abaddon, and even that these locusts are the anointed true JW Christians.

All I can say is: WOW!

The text is pretty clear, Abaddon is a bad angel, ruling over the demonic locusts, who are out to attack anyone not Christian. If the JWs have misidentified Abaddon and the locusts, then that means by definition they claim to be working for and operating on the "wrong side" of the battle of Good and Evil.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Oct 12, '10, 1:32 pm
adrift's Avatar
adrift adrift is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: October 28, 2005
Posts: 16,654
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

I went to the Watch Tower site and could not find any mention.
If this is their official teaching all I can say is WOW
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Oct 12, '10, 2:25 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 18, 2010
Posts: 5,927
Religion: Cradle Catholic - Revert
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

Similar in the use of symbolism as in Revelation, yet so far far away.

Kinda like a screwed up copy machine.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Oct 13, '10, 9:21 am
T More T More is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 5, 2009
Posts: 757
Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

A treatise from a former JW. Wish I could say I did all the digging on this info, but this all straight out of their publications:


Back in the days of Charles Taze Russell, the Watchtower Society correctly taught that Abaddon/Apollyon from Revelation chapter 9 was Satan or a demon (because the Bible describes him as a fallen angel of the Abyss who is in control of all of the demon/locusts):


“The Finished Mystery” (1917):

"[And] they [had a] HAVE THEIR king [over them]. — The same king as exercises general rulership over all the ecclesiastical affairs of this present evil world. [Which is] the angel of the [bottomless pit] ABYSS. — "The prince of the power of the air." — Eph. 2:2. Whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon. — And he is "a bad one," sure enough. — 2 Cor. 4:4. But in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. — That is, Destroyer. But in plain English his name is Satan, the Devil. As a means for preventing people from seeing the Truth, Methodism has been as efficient as any of the five systems previously described, or any that follow. All have been sadly misled and deceived by our great and wily Adversary; "Taken captive by him at his will." — 2 Tim. 2:26."

________________________

However, in modern times (starting at least in the 1950's), Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the Fallen Angel of the Abyss who controls the army of demon/locusts is JESUS CHRIST, and that the demon/locusts ARE JEHOVAH'S ANOINTED ONES:


The Watchtower, May 1st, 1992, Page 11:

10 This is a campaign extraordinaire, one that will be memorialized for all time. Wave upon wave of insects, most prominently locusts, devastate the land. What does this mean? Revelation 9:1-12 also speaks of a plague of locusts, sent forth by Jehovah under “a king, the angel of the abyss,” who is none other than Christ Jesus. His names Abaddon (Hebrew) and Apollyon (Greek) mean “Destruction” and “Destroyer.” These locusts picture the anointed remnant of Christians who, now in the Lord’s day, go forth to devastate Christendom’s pastures by completely exposing false religion and proclaiming Jehovah’s vengeance upon it.

___________________________

"Revelation--Its Grand Climax At Hand!" Book (1988), Page 148:

Rather than announce the incoming Kingdom of God, Christendom’s clergy have chosen to remain with Satan’s world. They want no part with the locust band and their King, concerning whom John now observes: “They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon [meaning “Destruction”], but in Greek he has the name Apollyon [meaning “Destroyer”].” (Revelation 9:11) As “angel of the abyss” and “Destroyer,” Jesus had truly released a plaguing woe on Christendom. But more is to follow!

Page 200:

This is supported by the use of Hebrew names in other visions; Jesus is given the Hebrew name “Abaddon” (meaning “Destruction”) and executes judgment at the place “called in Hebrew Har–Magedon.”—Revelation 9:11; 16:16.

___________________________

The Watchtower, December 1st, 1969, Page 719:

With a loud trumpet peal the fifth angel announced the loosing of the abyssed “witnesses” and their work that followed. Was this to be a “woe” to “those dwelling on the earth”? With prophetic vision the apostle John watched to see. Look! A “star” had fallen, not into the sea or into the fresh waters, but to the earth. But its fall was not disastrous to it. Rather, this “star” comes as a Freedom-giver, a Liberator of others, for “the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.” He is also a King, for he is “the angel of the abyss” and is the King of those whom he releases from the abyss; in harmony with which fact those whom he releases wear what, to John, “seemed to be crowns like gold.” This symbolic “star” also has a name for this occasion. In Greek its name is Apollyon, which means Destroyer. In Hebrew it is Abaddon, which means Destruction. All these features about this symbolic “star” reveal him to be the glorified Jesus Christ.

______________________________

The Watchtower, December 1st, 1961, Page 719:

The symbolic locusts must follow their King, Jesus Christ. John says of them: “They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is Abad´don, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” The resurrected heavenly Jesus Christ is the “angel of the abyss,” for he holds the “keys of death and of Ha´des.”

_______________________________

The Watchtower, March 1st 1951, Page 149:

These “locusts” are the army of Jehovah’s witnesses, and as to their effect upon Christendom’s “rich man” class Revelation 9:5-7, 10, 11 says: “It was granted the locusts, not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle, . . . Also they have tails and stings like scorpions; and in their tails is their authority to hurt the men five months. They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·bad´don [Destruction], but in Greek he has the name A·pol´lyon [Destroyer].” (NW) Not surprising that the effort is made throughout Christendom to destroy Jehovah’s witnesses.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Oct 13, '10, 11:18 am
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2004
Posts: 6,156
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

There is apparently a doctrinal flip-flop, though I don't know where to get the 1917 quote in full. But that doesn't really matter to me as much as the fact that there are many more "modern" quotes, including their official encyclopedia called "Insight" that plainly teaches Jesus is Abaddon.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Oct 13, '10, 12:32 pm
Abeyta85's Avatar
Abeyta85 Abeyta85 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2009
Posts: 186
Religion: Cradle Catholic
Send a message via AIM to Abeyta85 Send a message via Yahoo to Abeyta85
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

Wow so typical of reversing the interpretation in their favor, and turning it around on the rest of Christianity.
__________________
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:18

My Catholic Youtube Channel.
http://www.youtube.com/catholicapologia
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Oct 13, '10, 6:41 pm
PRmerger's Avatar
PRmerger PRmerger is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: March 19, 2006
Posts: 24,223
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

Just curious--how is Abaddon pronounced?
__________________
Lent is here! Be back in 40!

25 Random Things About Me

Visit my blog: 3 Minute Apologetics
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Oct 13, '10, 7:45 pm
thistle thistle is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 19,441
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The ULTIMATE argument against JW's: Who is Abaddon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
Just curious--how is Abaddon pronounced?
A bad one!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8020Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Butterflylily
4812CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4282Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3809SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3356Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3177Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3141Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2954For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: libralion
2672Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:27 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.