Roman Catholic OR Catholic?

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by CEM5

Hi James,

I like that! But those anti-catholic, anti-pope/vatican people out there used the similar term for years of "papists" to describe us who were/are loyal to the Pope and the Church!

Yes, what you say is true and, of course, using my term "Vatican Catholic" would have no effect on "Anti-Catholics" in particular. My main reason for using it, and proposing it's use is because, "Roman Catholic, as many here have pointed out, is associated most directly with the "Latin Rite" Church. I think that perhaps, "Vatican Catholic" - one in communion with the Vatican (and the Pope), would be more inclusive of the Eastern Rite Churches.

Peace
James

[Phillip Rolfes]

Originally Posted by JRKH

Yes, what you say is true and, of course, using my term "Vatican Catholic" would have no effect on "Anti-Catholics" in particular. My main reason for using it, and proposing it's use is because, "Roman Catholic, as many here have pointed out, is associated most directly with the "Latin Rite" Church. I think that perhaps, "Vatican Catholic" - one in communion with the Vatican (and the Pope), would be more inclusive of the Eastern Rite Churches.

Peace
James

Not really. "Vatican Catholic" still sort of suggests the idea that the Pope himself is the head of each particular Church sui juris. Such is not the case, especially for the Patriarchal Churches such as the Melkites, Maronites, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, etc.

In my opinion I see no problem with referring to all Catholics as "Catholic", but when referring to particular Churches sui juris just calling them "Roman Catholic", "Melkite Greek Catholic", "Ukrainian Greek Catholic", "Maronite Catholic", "Armenian Catholic", etc.

[Alexander Roman]

Originally Posted by CEM5

I should elaborate on my statement of: There are various "rites", nonetheless, all are under the guidance/authority of the Pope.

Those "rites" that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome (our Pope), for there are other rites that are not in communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

Actually, "rites" cannot be in or out of communion with anyone - Churches can.

There are Particular Eastern Catholic Churches who would share the same Byzantine Rite i.e. rite and church are not synonymous.

Alex

[Vico]

With either title "Roman Catholic Church" or "Catholic Church", there is One Mystical Body of Christ, just one holy catholic and apostolic Church, from the CDF:

"...because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history." ...

"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church."

Church of Christ: subsists in the universal Catholic Church, the churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, each is a Church sui iuris,

Elements of the Church exist in those that are not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome:

- with valid apostolic episcopate and eucharist, called sister Churches or particular or local Churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox churches, Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

- without valid apostolic episcopate and eucharist, from the reformation, called Christian Communities.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...tiones_en.html

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 1985, stated:

"The indications contained in this Note are, therefore, to be held as authoritative and binding." ... "...the expression sister Churches in the proper sense, as attested by the common Tradition of East and West, may only be used for those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist" -- CDF June 30, 2000

" . . . the Council chose the word subsistit precisely in order to make it clear that there exists a single 'subsistence' of the true Church, while outside her visible structure only elementa ecclesiae exist, which — as elements of the Church — tend and lead toward the Catholic Church".

-- CDF, Notification on the book "Church: Charism and Power" by Fr. Leonardo Boff, AAS 77 (1985), 758-759.

[Alexander Roman]

Originally Posted by Vico

With either title "Roman Catholic Church" or "Catholic Church", there is One Mystical Body of Christ, just one holy catholic and apostolic Church, from the CDF:

"...because of the division between Christians, the fullness of universality, which is proper to the Church governed by the Successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him, is not fully realised in history." ...

"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless, the word “subsists” can only be attributed to the Catholic Church alone precisely because it refers to the mark of unity that we profess in the symbols of the faith (I believe... in the “one” Church); and this “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church."

Church of Christ: subsists in the universal Catholic Church, the churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, each is a Church sui iuris,

Elements of the Church exist in those that are not in full communion with the Bishop of Rome:

- with valid apostolic episcopate and eucharist, called sister Churches or particular or local Churches, such as the Eastern Orthodox churches, Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

- without valid apostolic episcopate and eucharist, from the reformation, called Christian Communities.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...tiones_en.html

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 1985, stated:

"The indications contained in this Note are, therefore, to be held as authoritative and binding." ... "...the expression sister Churches in the proper sense, as attested by the common Tradition of East and West, may only be used for those ecclesial communities that have preserved a valid Episcopate and Eucharist" -- CDF June 30, 2000

" . . . the Council chose the word subsistit precisely in order to make it clear that there exists a single 'subsistence' of the true Church, while outside her visible structure only elementa ecclesiae exist, which — as elements of the Church — tend and lead toward the Catholic Church".

-- CDF, Notification on the book "Church: Charism and Power" by Fr. Leonardo Boff, AAS 77 (1985), 758-759.

Well, I don't know why you are quoting only on what Rome has said about the Orthodox Churches, and not what it has said about the Particular Eastern Catholic Churches.

The universal Catholic Church is comprised of Particular Churches, including the large Latin Catholic Particular Church. These Particular Churches accept the same faith and are in communion with the Pope of Rome, have the same valid sacraments etc. And,yes, of course the title matters. "Roman Catholic" is a title specific to the Latin Catholic Particular Church - whatever its provenance and however Latin Catholics think of it today. It has nothing to do with the Particular EC Churches - in fact, an Eastern Catholic would be shocked if he or she was referred to as a "Roman Catholic." For Eastern Catholics, to lump us together with Catholics of another Particular Church is to show disrespect for our traditions and our Particularity. That is what "Roman Catholic" means if that title is applied to us.

We are in communion with the Pope of Rome as universal pastor, but who is also the head of a Particular Catholic Church himself.

Alex

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Alexander Roman

It has nothing to do with the Particular EC Churches - in fact, an Eastern Catholic would be shocked if he or she was referred to as a "Roman Catholic."

not true, Alex... Roum Katolik (Tr: Roman Catholic) is used in several slavic laguages to distinguish some Byzantine Catholics from the Orthodox Katolik EO.

Only in countries (Like Ukraine & Poland) where there is a multiple Catholic church presence is it untoward to refer to EC's as "Romans," as in those places, Roman refers to the Roman Church sui iuris.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by Alexander Roman

Well, I don't know why you are quoting only on what Rome has said about the Orthodox Churches, and not what it has said about the Particular Eastern Catholic Churches.

The universal Catholic Church is comprised of Particular Churches, including the large Latin Catholic Particular Church. These Particular Churches accept the same faith and are in communion with the Pope of Rome, have the same valid sacraments etc. And,yes, of course the title matters. "Roman Catholic" is a title specific to the Latin Catholic Particular Church - whatever its provenance and however Latin Catholics think of it today. It has nothing to do with the Particular EC Churches - in fact, an Eastern Catholic would be shocked if he or she was referred to as a "Roman Catholic." For Eastern Catholics, to lump us together with Catholics of another Particular Church is to show disrespect for our traditions and our Particularity. That is what "Roman Catholic" means if that title is applied to us.

We are in communion with the Pope of Rome as universal pastor, but who is also the head of a Particular Catholic Church himself.

Alex

The post does include Rome on the Eastern Catholic Churches! Church sui iuris includes Latin Church and Eastern Catholic Churches:

"Church of Christ: subsists in the universal Catholic Church, the churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, each is a Church sui iuris"

The terminology can be a source of confusion in canon law (1983 CIC, 1988 Pastor Bonus, and 1990 CCEO) which uses ritual Church sui iuris (CCEO 27) for the Eastern Catholic churches and particular church for a diocese or equivalent (CIC 368). The term Latin Church, used in CCEO, is also a Church sui iuris.

[Alexander Roman]

Originally Posted by Aramis

not true, Alex... Roum Katolik (Tr: Roman Catholic) is used in several slavic laguages to distinguish some Byzantine Catholics from the Orthodox Katolik EO.

Only in countries (Like Ukraine & Poland) where there is a multiple Catholic church presence is it untoward to refer to EC's as "Romans," as the "Roman" term is often used to distinguish EC from EO.

Yes, but "Roum" or "Romaios" has a different connotation within that context (you are absolutely right).

The Turks referred to the Patriarch of Constantinople as the "Patriarch of the Romans" and Oriental Orthodox would refer to both the Roman and Constantinopolitan patriarchates as the western "Roman" province of the Church (especially when the iconoclast crisis came to be).

"Roman Catholic" in the usual sense of "Western Catholic" is what I had in mind.

Alex

[Alexander Roman]

Originally Posted by Vico

The post does include Rome on the Eastern Catholic Churches! Church sui iuris includes Latin Church and Eastern Catholic Churches:

"Church of Christ: subsists in the universal Catholic Church, the churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, each is a Church sui iuris"

The terminology can be a source of confusion in canon law (1983 CIC, 1988 Pastor Bonus, and 1990 CCEO) which uses ritual Church sui iuris (CCEO 27) for the Eastern Catholic churches and particular church for a diocese or equivalent (CIC 368). The term Latin Church, used in CCEO, is also a Church sui iuris.

Oh! Sorry! (I guess we read into things what we like, don't we? )

God bless!

Alex

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by ByzCath

The universal Church is the Catholic Church. The Roman (or Latin) Catholic Church is one of the 23 (or so) Churches that are in Communion with one another that form the Catholic Church whose visible head is the Pope.

and note it is the:

"Catechism of the Catholic Church"

[Alexander Roman]

When I once had the privilete of meeting Pope John Paul II, I said words to the effect, "Greetings from the Particular Ukrainian Catholic Church, Holy Father and Head of the Particular Latin Catholic Church!"

He thought about it for a second, and then smiled in approval, nodding his head and offering his hand.



Alex

[yaHalyna]

Maybe this will help clarify.
The LATIN RITE consists of Ambrosian, Mosarabic, & Roman catholics.
The ALEXANDRIAN RITE consists of Coptic & Ethiopian catholics
The ANTIOCHIAN INFLUENCE consists of the 3 middle groups which were started in Constantinople,Armenia,Syria and Chaldea. All those in the ANTIOCHIAN INFLUENCE are Eastern/Byzantine/Greek Catholic Rite.


JERUSALEM/CHURCH OF THE 12 APOSTLES

LATIN -------------------------ANTIOCH ------------------- B]ALEXANDRIA[/b]
------------------------EASTERN/GREEK RITE---------------------------------------
Ambrosian..........CAPADOCIAN......W.SYR IAN........E.SYRIAN...................Co ptic
Mosarabic..........(Constantinople)..... ....(Armenian).(Syrian).(Chadean)....... ...Ethiopian
+Roman..............Bulgarian........... ...... Marionite............... Malabarese.....................
........................Greek........... ........... Malankarese............................. ..................
...................... Italo-Albanian................................ ........................................ .....
....................... Melkite................................. ........................................ .............
....................... Romanian................................ ........................................ ...........
....................... Russian................................. ........................................ ............
...................... Ruthenian............................... ........................................ ...........
.........................Serbian........ ........................................ ......................................
.......................+Ukrainian....... ........................................ .....................................


So, you see, Latin Rite Catholics and Roman Catholics are not interchangeable terms.
The Roman Catholics are only 1 of 17 different types of Catholics in the Universal Church and only 1 of 3 in the Latin Rite.
The main reason for the differences is the first line of the chart: The 12 Apostles. Remember they went by 2s to spread the Gospel. St Andrew with Titus introduced Christianity in Ukraine. Two Greeks, Cyril & Methodius, joined them. Because of the language barrier, Cyril & Methodius set the Greek alphabet to Ukrainian spoken words (that's why we have Cyrillic alphabet). These are ALL Catholics. St Olga, queen of Ukraine, converted and influenced her son,St Vladimir,who also converted and in 988 baptized the Ukrainian nation. At that time Ukraine was called Rus and encompassed all the "Russias" the Carpathias, the Ruthenians and present day Russia.
In the Great Schism of 1066, the Orthodox broke away from the Catholics.

[Vico]

This chart shows all 23 Catholic Churches sui iuris of six traditions.

[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by vinarabo

The Catholic Church does not refer to itself as the Roman Catholic Church. Roman Catholic is not used in any of the Catholic Church documents. The term came from the Anglican church who considered themselves to be Catholic. They called us Roman Catholics, and them Anglican Catholics. There is only one Catholic Church, and it aint the Anglican church...

Mike

You would think then over a course of 45 yrs they would update the printing companies printing their forms. A 1964 copy of my Certificate of Baptism says I was baptized according to the rite of the Roman Catholic Church. And a 2009 copy with other Sacraments noted says the same. Maybe they should read according to the Roman rite of the Catholic Church.

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by CMatt25

You would think then over a course of 45 yrs they would update the printing companies printing their forms. A 1964 copy of my Certificate of Baptism says I was baptized according to the rite of the Roman Catholic Church. And a 2009 copy with other Sacraments noted says the same. Maybe they should read according to the Roman rite of the Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church is a valid linguistic construct; it refers to the Roman Church Sui Iuris.