Benedict XVI - Was it a Tridentine Mass?

FrRobSST · #1 Apr 20, '05, 10:53 am

I was reading a CNN.COM article on the Mass earlier, and note that EWTN will be replaying it later today. I will probably catch the 10 PM showing (CDT). My question is, though, about this quote:

"Wednesday's traditional Latin Mass was held less than 24 hours after 115 cardinals from 52 countries elected Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany the 265th pope."

Is this another case of CNN not having a clue, or did he actually say the Mass from the 1962 Missal (i.e., the Indult Mass)?

Rob+

Benedictus · #2 Apr 20, '05, 11:01 am

It was in Latin, but it was Novus Ordo, not the Tridentine Mass (or whatever one's preferred term is).

I have some opinions about the intelligence of almost all journalists that I'll keep to myself for now....

Vincent · #3 Apr 20, '05, 11:11 am

If I remember correctly, hist first Mass (according to the current Missal) was celebrated entirely in Latin, apart from the Kyrie, of course.

He used one of the shorter Eucharistic prayers, and not the Roman Canon.

There was no homily, but he gave an address entirely in Latin after Communion and before the Blessing and Dismissal.

The Pope didn't face liturgical east during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. He may (although I'm not sure—anybody know if the Sistine Chapel is oriented?) have been facing geographical east.

Tom444 · #4 Apr 20, '05, 2:41 pm

I'm watching a replay on EWTN right now, and it's definitely not a Tridentine mass. The back of B16's chair is directly against the high altar, and everything is set up on the new altar for him to do the consecration versus populum.

As far as the "traditional Latin Mass" description from CNN, I guess they just assume anything done in Latin (never mind that it's the traditional language of the Church) must be pre-V2. They wouldn't know a real TLM if it slapped them right in the face (although I greatly enjoy trying to picture that analogy).

Exporter · #5 Apr 20, '05, 3:41 pm

He faced the people. So it was not Tridentine. I wish it had been!

**JimG** · #6 Apr 20, '05, 4:06 pm

After Pope John Paul II's funeral, someone wrote to the local newspaper saying how beautiful the Latin Mass was, and it was too bad that the current Mass couldn't be like that. In fact, the Pope's funeral Mass was the same as any other funeral Mass in the current Roman Rite. The only difference was that it was said in Latin; and any priest can say the current Mass in Latin now, with no special permission needed.

FrRobSST · #7 Apr 20, '05, 4:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exporter

He faced the people. So it was not Tridentine. I wish it had been!

Well,that's not an immediate give-away. The Pope always faced the people at the High Altar in St. Peter's when the Tridentine was in use. He had to to face east.

Rob+

Dr. Bombay · #8 Apr 20, '05, 6:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrRobSST

Well,that's not an immediate give-away. The Pope always faced the people at the High Altar in St. Peter's when the Tridentine was in use. He had to to face east.

Rob+

I've wondered about this. I've watched numerous celebrations of the new Mass from St. Peter's. Are you telling me that the direction the Pope (or other celebrant) faces did not change when the new Mass was promulgated? I had always assumed that did change with the new Mass.

Now you've destroyed my fantasy idea of the past.

I had always pictured in my mind John XXIII or Pius XII saying Mass on that altar facing the opposite way from JPII. Reality stinks. My dream world is much more fun.

pm1853 · #9 Apr 20, '05, 6:11 pm

I'm not hijacking this thread, but I do have a somewhat outside question concerning this mass. The Kyrie was done in the old 3 Kyrie, 3 Christe, 3 Kyrie manner instead of the 2, 2, 2 that I hear at mass most Sundays. Can this be done anywhere? I was actually quite surprised by it and kind of like it.

The original question has been answered, no its not a "tridentine" so to speak, but I must say it was a beautiful mass.

FrRobSST · #10 Apr 20, '05, 6:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Bombay

I've wondered about this. I've watched numerous celebrations of the new Mass from St. Peter's. Are you telling me that the direction the Pope (or other celebrant) faces did not change when the new Mass was promulgated? I had always assumed that did change with the new Mass.

This site has pictures:
http://romanliturgy.net/romanliturgy_images.html

You can tell by the steps... the Confession is not seen when the Pope is depcited offering Mass from behind.

Rob+

Dr. Bombay · #11 Apr 20, '05, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrRobSST

This site has pictures:
http://romanliturgy.net/romanliturgy_images.html

You can tell by the steps... the Confession is not seen when the Pope is depcited offering Mass from behind.

Rob+

And the Confession is....what? Is that the steps that lead down to St Peter's tomb? Sorry I'm not real familiar with these terms.

I do notice in those pictures that, although he may be technically "facing" the people, there are an awful lot of things on the altar that would effectively block most of the people's view, i.e. a large crucifix and the candles are placed directly in the middle of the altar, as opposed to the sides like they are now. I'm wondering, did they used to have a tabernacle on the altar in the old days? I can't really tell from the pictures.

I do like the lighting in St. Peter's as shown in those photos. I think the way it's lighted now is way too harsh. I realize that's probably for television, but still. You'd think they could tone it down somewhat.

Another question...it says "The reason for a second altar is that only the Pope may celebrate on the main altar of the Basilica." Is that rule still in effect? If so, shouldn't a second altar have been used during this year's Easter Triduum? Although the Pope wasn't present, he was still alive.

BTW, thanks for the link. Neat photos.

FrRobSST · #12 Apr 20, '05, 7:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Bombay

And the Confession is....what? Is that the steps that lead down to St Peter's tomb? Sorry I'm not real familiar with these terms.

Yes. It's actually called, if I remember my linguistic skills, the Confessio Sanctae Petri (can someone with a better working knowledge of Latin correct me if I am wrong).

Quote:

I'm wondering, did they used to have a tabernacle on the altar in the old days? I can't really tell from the pictures.

No. I am reasonably sure that the Reservation has always been in either the Apse behind the Papal Altar or in the Chapel to the Gospel side of the Altar at St. Peters.

Quote:

Another question...it says "The reason for a second altar is that only the Pope may celebrate on the main altar of the Basilica." Is that rule still in effect?

No. The term now used to describe this altar is the Main Altar at St. Peter's. I think the term Papal Altar went the way of all flesh after Vatican II. It still gets used from time to time by commentators, but unless I am mistaken, I think the name has been stricken from the record.

Quote:

BTW, thanks for the link. Neat photos.

I love photos of Churches.. big and small! Glad I could provide some links for you too!

Rob+