Are Marian dogmas wildly un biblical? - Page 13

graceandglory · #**181** Nov 17, '10, 8:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

I believe that you believe the bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church, which neglected to write itself into the NT; I have a different and biblical view concerning that I would be happy to discuss on the appropriate thread.

Well, you would be wrong then. As Catholics, we are universal. Therefore, those who are faithful Catholics all believe the same thing. Please, show some integrity and stop assuming what we believe. It is free online to search out what Catholics believe, then you can choose to agree or disagree based on an honest assessment.

As Catholics, we believe that GOD is the author of Sacred Scripture. We believe that Scripture is all about JESUS, and that it points to JESUS, Who is the WORD, who is to be worshipped. The Bible is not to be worshipped.

As for the Catholic Church not being in the scriptures, have you not read the book of the Acts of the Apostles? Which churches exactly do you think Paul was writing to in his letters? That would be the CATHOLIC Church at Corinth, the CATHOLIC Church at Thessalonica, The Catholic Church in Galatia, etc. There was only ONE Truth in the beginning, and there still is only ONE truth today. When the canon of scripture was closed (as per the Catholic Church), the Catholic Church continued to maintain the faithfulness to the early Church and the earliest believers. If you don't believe me, you can look it up. I'm not talking about something that must be believed on faith, this is historical, and can be verified by research.

When I was a bible-only protestant like you, I truly believed that Church History started with the Reformation. I couldn't have been more wrong. HOWEVER, you will not find anything on protestant bible bookstore shelves that go back to before LUTHER.

Scripture and Inspiration
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

Calvin 95 · #**182** Nov 17, '10, 8:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by placido

Which sense do I "use it"? Is Mary really the mother of Jesus or is the Bible lying? If she is, is Jesus God?

"For a child is born to us, a son is given us; upon his shoulder dominion rests. They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:5).
You ask that strange question simply because you confuse being born with being created. When we say Mary is Mother of God you wrongly think we mean Mary is creator of God.

First, Mary is a mother (like the Bible say) not just a canal. Women are not just canals, they are mothers.
Secondly, you admit God being born (through a birth canal) while at the same time saying He was not born ... and can not even see you are contradicting yourself.

That is like asking: "was God everywhere when God-man, Jesus, was before Pilate?"
Or, do you God-Man in the womb is less God than God-man walking around in Nazareth?

Placido

I already explained that sufficiently from a biblical point of view, which you disagree with. You avoided the question, "how can God be born and be eternal?" Because the answer is so evident that you must side-step it and use a profusion of words to walk around the obvious. God has no Mother, if He did He would be a CREATURE; Jesus the God-man was born in the likeness of human flesh because this is the "tool" or "means" which He chose to reveal Himself into our little time-space box rather than in the holy of holies. You obviously are unable to comprehend the two natures and the relationship and importantance this has for man. I suggest you read and study your Bible on this topic before you continue on wit this discussion, which is really not a discussion.

graceandglory · #**183** Nov 17, '10, 8:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

I already explained that sufficiently from a biblical point of view, which you disagree with. You avoided the question, "how can God be born and be eternal?" Because the answer is so evident that you must side-step it and use a profusion of words to walk around the obvious. God has no Mother, if He did He would be a CREATURE; Jesus the God-man was born in the likeness of human flesh because this is the "tool" or "means" which He chose to reveal Himself into our little time-space box rather than in the holy of holies. You obviously are unable to comprehend the two natures and the relationship and importantance this has for man. I suggest you read and study your Bible on this topic before you continue on wit this discussion, which is really not a discussion.

Sir, you are the one who needs to read. You are relying on your own very minute understanding compared with 2000 years of Christian thought.

Is Christ 100% God? Is He 100% man?
Mary is the Mother of God the Son. She is not the Mother of God the Father.

I suggest you read about the nature of the Trinity. Or do you not believe in the Trinity, either, since it's not in the Bible? The Catholic Church made that up too.

Calvin 95 · #**184** Nov 17, '10, 8:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by placido

There were only two apostles named James: one is the son of Alpheus and the other the son of Zebedee. Was Mary the mother of Jesus married to one of those or did she commit adultery? Soon or later you will have to give up your erroneous understand of Scriptures brother.

You are correct; he is not an Apostle, one of the 12. He would be like a Barnabus or Mark or Silas, an apostle

I would also not recognize this Mary who is worshiped. That shows your miserable understanding of Catholicism.
Why don't take at least an hour or two learn instead of trying to teach that what you don't understand?

placido[/quote]

17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. - Galatians 1

4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. -- 1 Cor. 15

Sorry I capitalized the "A"; that was an error on my part; should have been a lower case "a".

Calvin 95 · #**185** Nov 17, '10, 8:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Roman

Dear Friend in Christ,

Actually, Catholics now do study Reformation theology and I know one priest who has earned a doctorate in such and has written a study on justification by faith.

As St Thomas Aquinas said, "All truth, regardless of who speaks it, comes from the Holy Spirit."

Yes, there are many points on which Catholics and others can agree with John Calvin.

I am simply pointing out that as a Protestant theologian, Calvin accepted that Mary was Ever-Virgin and also her title of "Theotokos" or "Bearer/Mother of God."

It is simply a contemporary myth that the Reformers rejected large "T" Tradition based on the early Councils of the Church. They did not and Luther and Lutherans have always affirmed they accept the teachings of the first Seven Ecumenical Councils. Calvin, together with all other Reformers of his day, rejected the idea that Mary had other children.

The only person who made the claim that Mary had other children was a man in the fourth century and St Jerome, who translated the Bible, refuted him. I will find the link to Jerome's letter and will post it here.

God bless you

Alex

You would fare much better to focus on the Word of God and not of men.

Calvin 95 · #**186** Nov 17, '10, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JharekCarnelian

John 1:1 is refering to Christ not the scruptures.

How do you seperate what God has said from God? Is Scripture God? No Is Scriputre part of God? Yes Thi si s why the writer of Hebrews says the Scripture is both living and active. Think about it; don't respond because I will be moving along after I have addressed the rest. This whole theology of Maryology is quite scary to me.

graceandglory · #**187** Nov 17, '10, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Revisionist and/or imaginationary history? Read the plain words of Mary and Jesus; it is not too difficult to understand; very straightforeword that an unbeliever can understand. She called God her SAVIOR; saved from what? Sin. Who has sin? Sinners. Anyone want to challenge these facts? Good luck.

God is Mary's Savior. She was saved from sin so that she could be the tabernacle, the very dwelling place of the LORD GOD.

Quote:

New International Version (©1984)
"'You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, which is among them.'"

Leviticus 15:31

If Mary was sinful then GOD'S dwelling place, her womb, would have been DEFILED.
(According to Scripture)
So, therefore, she had to have been preserved from Original Sin, just as Adam and Eve were.

God's pretty powerful that way.

placido · #**188** Nov 17, '10, 8:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

Only those who love the pure word of God; will love the humility of the birth mother of Jesus, called Mary; who recognized her need for humility before God and her desperate need for a Savior and the privledge God gave to her by choosing her among any he could have created. That is the kind of love Mary showed; respect for the word of God and for the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. What you call love is total disrespect for Mary and for God in my humble opinion. To worship someone/something other than God is a grave sin according to Scripture; not me, but Scripture. Thank God for the elect of God who can who have eyes to see and ears to hear, which Mary was a shining example..

Good that you talk about love. Now practice it. Catholics do not worship Mary (or any thing other that God for that matter).
It seems you can't have honest disagreement without making false statements about us. Is that the love you talk about?
If you know LOVE, you should desist from misrepresenting our faith. I repeat CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY or "something other than God".

placido

Calvin 95 · #**189** Nov 17, '10, 8:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwGusTeen

Hmmm...
Consider this:

Genesis 14:14 (King James Version)
"14And when Abram heard that his BROTHER was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

Interestingly, Lot was the NEPHEW of Abram - not his brother. The reason? Hebrew has no word for "nephew". So much for the "...simple reading of Scripture..." statement.

Pax!

it is common knowledge that the Hebrew language does not make the DISTINCTION that the Greek does, which is the point that can't be dealt with here; only maneuvered around to avoid the obvious contradiction(s).

Calvin 95 · #**190** Nov 17, '10, 9:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by placido

Jumping to apostolic succession from Matthew 16:19? That is news to many of us who have never met a Catholic using Matthew 16:19 to defend Apostolic Succession. Or, may be (just may be) Calvin 95 does not even know what Catholics mean by Apostolic Succession.

Here is the Gospel According to Calvin 95, Chapter One Verse One: "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."
Yes, according to Calvin 95, the Word of John 1:1 is the Bible.

placido

ad hominem = nothing to really say. It does show the heart and breaks the 2nd commandment, then by default the first. So have at it. I count it as all joy according the the Scripture.

placido · #**191** Nov 17, '10, 9:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

I believe that you believe the bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church, which neglected to write itself into the NT; I have a different and biblical view concerning that I would be happy to discuss on the appropriate thread.

You believe that we "believe the Bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church" ... yet the fact that you will never find a Catholic document that says so doesn't bother you. You just make something up, believe it wholeheartedly, and force it on us ... and you have the audacity to call yourself a Christian?
FYI, Catholics believe the Holy Scriptures are God-breathed (ie inspired by God). Now you have it from us, stop lying.

placido

placido · #**192** Nov 17, '10, 9:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

Being devoted to Mary makes you devoted to Mary, not Jesus.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

Unless you're making her part of the Godhead.

That statement disproves your previous statement because Catholics recognize Mary as blessed without making her part of the Godhead ... the very idea of making Mary part of the God is so absurd it does not exist outside the anti-Catholic mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

If Mary sees God face to face then why does she have to pray?

Where does the Bible those who see God face to face would cease to pray (chapter and verse please).

placido

placido · #**193** Nov 17, '10, 9:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

Do you have a Divine Source to back up all your Marian doctrines?

You keep asking for sources but you have a bad tract record of refusing to even look at the evidence when presented. Will you this time?

placido

graceandglory · #**194** Nov 17, '10, 9:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin 95

I believe that you believe the bible was written and inspired by the Catholic church, which neglected to write itself into the NT; I have a different and biblical view concerning that I would be happy to discuss on the appropriate thread.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

graceandglory · #**195** Nov 17, '10, 9:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by moondweller

Being devoted to Mary makes you devoted to Mary, not Jesus. Unless you're making her part of the Godhead.If Mary sees God face to face then why does she have to pray? On what objective source do you base all of this?

Being devoted to my husband makes me devoted to my husband.
He is not part of the Godhead.
I do not worship my husband.
Together we worship only the Lord God.

But we are also devoted to the Seattle Mariners, but that seems to be a lost cause.