The Honeymoon Is About To Be Over! - Page 4

John_19_59 · #46 Apr 22, '05, 8:20 am

The vindictive, uncharitable tone I detect in some of these posts seems totally out of keeping with the teachings of the Church and what little I know of Jesus.

The truth is the truth.

Muslims don't worship God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Ask them!

I was taught that Christ gave Peter the keys to the kingdom and that that authority has been legitimately passed down over the millenia. I was also taught that we are to accept the teaching of the Magisterium as final authority.

In theory - except St Athanasius may have something to say about that.

Even if one were to doubt that the teaching of the Magisterium lacks divine guidance at all times, one has to admit at the practical level that the combined experience of centuries of study and thought may be superior to what any of us have learned individually in our relatively short lifetimes.

The idea that the Muslims worship the same God as us is totally new and in opposition to centuries of study and thought.

The Magisterium does not teach that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Actually it does. Still.
How that works is the issue.

Some may wish it did, but it does not. To me that is the end of the discussion.

Nope.

As a practical matter, I have trouble understanding the objection. If we are saved, should we begrudge the same blessings to others even if they are not Catholic?

I don't begrudge - I am just aware of what the Church has taught for thousands of years. What I want and the reality of Church teaching prior to 1965 are two different things.

I don't see the Church as a private club with amenities for members only. I see it as the earthly representative of Jesus Christ reaching out to a troubled world.

Why bother converting anyone?

**fix** · #47 Apr 22, '05, 8:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OriginalJS

The Magisterium does not teach that there is no salvation outside the Church..

It does teach this, please see the CCC. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. That does not mean that one must be a registered member to be saved, but it also does not mean all paths lead to salvation. Any soul saved is saved through the Catholic Church whether they know it in this world or not.

OriginalJS · #48 Apr 22, '05, 8:44 am

I am only a layman and my conscience guides me to accept what the Magisterium teaches now, not what it taught, or what some may think it taught, at earlier times whether before 1965 or before 1265. I know that the Church has evolved over time and that some positions it took in earlier ages have been superceded.

I do have some problem understanding the logic of an attack on some of the post 1965 teachings. That seems to me to be a direct attack on the Magisterium saying that the Magisterium is wrong. If the Magisterium can be wrong now, then the Magisterium could have been wrong in the past. If that is true, then it is difficult to see why we should accept the teachings of the Magisterium at any time instead of just making up our own minds about what we think is right. In short, either the Church has teaching authority, or it does not.

(As something of an aside, I note that Pope Benedict XVI is reported to have taken an active part in Vatican II.)

I am comfortable accepting the teaching authority of the Church.

John_19_59 · #49 Apr 22, '05, 8:56 am

I am comfortable accepting the teaching authority of the Church.

Which is more in keeping with the tradition of our Fathers?

Mortalium Animos or Assisi?

You have to understand the dilema that some puzzled Catholics have been suffering for 40 years.

Islam is anti-Christ by the very definition in the New Testament. I could claim I'm Napolean but that does make me Napolean, Muslims claim they worship the God of Abraham but it doesn't mean its true either.

Muslims are quite specific about their beliefs.

You do them an injustice and insult their intelligence when anyone suggests that they have a blurry vision of God.

The only thing that is blurry is our ability to see the complete falsehood in their religion since 1965.

I can not accept the teaching that we worship the same God. It is absolutely not true.

Trelow · #50 Apr 22, '05, 9:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_19_59

I can not accept the teaching that we worship the same God. It is absolutely not true.

Then you cannot accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

OriginalJS · #51 Apr 22, '05, 9:17 am

John 19 59

I am a layman; I am not a theologian. I don't know about Anastasius or other authorities you mention. I understand there is confusion among some Catholics over matters of theology and doctrine. As to whether we worship the same God as the Muslims, I don't know. If there is only one God I have a problem with logically accepting the existence of more than one. More than that I can't say.

The Church has the clergy and a huge number of scholars who have devoted their lives to study of these matters. Conclusions are reached only slowly and after intensive prayer and research. I take a lot of comfort in that.

I don't understand everything. But I don't understand modern medicine either. I have tried for years to self-diagnose things and I am always wrong. I don't understand civil and criminal law either except to the extent I have studied some particular aspect.

I think that for me it would be the height of conceit to seriously challenge Church teachings arrived at by the Magisterium just because I have difficulty understanding a complex matter.

I don't question your sincerity; maybe you are right on all points. But for myself, I must as a matter of conscience accept the teachings of the Church over the complaints of those who dissent.

John_19_59 · #52 Apr 22, '05, 9:20 am

Then you cannot accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

Much like St Athanasius then.

Scout · #53 Apr 22, '05, 9:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_19_59

Then you cannot accept the authority of the Catholic Church.

Much like St Athanasius then.

or Martin Luther.

Scout

John_19_59 · #54 Apr 22, '05, 9:25 am

If there is only one God I have a problem with logically accepting the existence of more than one. More than that I can't say.

There IS only one God.

However - claiming to worship a supreme being isn't enough to say that they really worship THE Supreme Being.

The Moonies claim Reverend Moon is God. Are they right?

The god the Muslims claim to worship explicitly told them that Jesus is not divine and that is A CORE Muslim belief. End of story. The One God would never ever do such a thing.

John_19_59 · #55 Apr 22, '05, 9:27 am

or Martin Luther.

No, not Martin Luther - he rejected the traditions of the Church.

St Athanasius clung to the traditions of the Church.

You see the difference?

Scout · #56 Apr 22, '05, 9:33 am

They rejected the authority of the Church. See the similarity?

Scout

John_19_59 · #57 Apr 22, '05, 9:37 am

They rejected the authority of the Church. See the similarity?

I have clung to our Traditions where they were abandoned at VII.

Mortalium Animos in particular.

OriginalJS · #58 Apr 22, '05, 9:39 am

John 19 59: Do you accept the election of Benedict XVI by the Cardinals as expressing the will of God?

John_19_59 · #59 Apr 22, '05, 9:41 am

Do you accept the election of Benedict XVI by the Cardinals as expressing the will of God?

I accept his election - absolutely - the "will of God" I'm not sure.

Was the election of Alexander VI the will of God?

Scout · #60 Apr 22, '05, 9:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_19_59

They rejected the authority of the Church. See the similarity?

I have clung to our Traditions where they were abandoned at VII.

Mortalium Animos in particular.

So you get to decide what you should follow and what you get to abandon? Sounds an awful lot like Martin Luther to me.

Scout