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  #1  
Old Nov 18, '10, 11:11 pm
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Default The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

What is Catholicism without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic faith without Mary?
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  #2  
Old Nov 18, '10, 11:15 pm
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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Originally Posted by moondweller View Post
What is Catholicism without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic faith without Mary?
Mary was chosen by God (from the beginning of humanity - her motherhood was the very first prophesy of Scripture, spoken by God himself - Gen 3:15) to bear the Son, Jesus. She consented to this ("be it unto me according to thy word"). Without a (consenting) mother, there would be no Incarnation, and thus no Catholic Church.

Without Mary, there is no Christian faith (Catholic or otherwise), because there is no Christ.

What if Mary had said "no?" Some claim that God would have moved on to another girl (and maybe another, and another), like a sailor working a bar, until he gets lucky. The Church says that Mary was pre-ordained from the beginning to be the Mother of Our Lord, and thus her consent was absolutely necessary.

Jesus is the new Adam, and Mary is the new Eve. Both said "yes" to God.
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Old Nov 18, '10, 11:23 pm
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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Mary was chosen by God (from the beginning of humanity - her motherhood was the very first prophesy of Scripture, spoken by God himself - Gen 3:15) to bear the Son, Jesus. She consented to this ("be it unto me according to thy word"). Without a (consenting) mother, there would be no Incarnation, and thus no Catholic Church.

Without Mary, there is no Christian faith (Catholic or otherwise), because there is no Christ.
So, without Mary there is no Catholicism? She's preeminent. All of Catholicism rests on the consent of a woman.
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Old Nov 18, '10, 11:27 pm
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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So, without Mary there is no Catholicism? She's preeminent. All of Catholicism rests on the consent of a woman.
Yes. Humanity fell through Adam, at the instigation of Eve (who listened to a devil). Humanity was restored through Jesus, at the instigation of Mary (who listened to an angel).

Without Mary, there is no Jesus. Without Jesus, there is no Catholic Church.
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Old Nov 18, '10, 11:30 pm
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

Also, she is prophesied in the Apocalypse of St. John that she is the Queen of Heaven.

Here is a list of verses and their explanation. It will explain it clearer than I ever could:

Quote:
I. The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.
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  #6  
Old Nov 18, '10, 11:30 pm
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

Quote:
Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.

II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.


VII. Mary's Coronation in Heaven

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.
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  #7  
Old Nov 18, '10, 11:31 pm
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

Quote:
Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.
There's loads more. If you want to read everything, you can at : http://www.scripturecatholic.com/ble...rgin_mary.html

Also, not to mention that Catholics believe in some Marian apparitions, such as Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes. In these apparitions, Mary has emphasised the importantce of asking her to pray for us. We must ask her to "pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death". She is the closest soul to Christ.
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Old Nov 19, '10, 1:04 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

Mary is supremely important to all Christians. However, many Christians, out of some desire to be "not Catholic", now either ignore her, suppress her memory, or even insult her as nothing more than a womb. They judge God in doing that, but Mary still prays for them.

Both Luther and Calvin, who venerated Mary, would likely be shocked to see how today's bible Christians demean God's chosen Woman.

God could just as easily have created a human nature for Jesus from nothing - but He didn't. He created Mary specifically for one purpose. Something to think about.
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Old Nov 19, '10, 1:44 am
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Cool Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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Originally Posted by moondweller View Post
What is Catholicism without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic faith without Mary?
The proper question should actually read..
Quote:
Originally Posted by moondweller View Post
What is Catholicism Christianity without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic Christian faith without Mary?
And the proper answer is again, no.

Mary is the 2nd most unique person in all human history aside from Christ as she is the focus point of so much prophecy of the coming of Christ. To deny or deride her place is to attempt to make less of the plan of God for our salvation. She played a vital role in His coming into the world on our behalf, and she performed/performs her proper role as Giberah/Queen Mother of the Davidic king and Messiah beginning even in John 2.
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Old Nov 19, '10, 4:05 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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The proper question should actually read..
Quote:
Originally Posted by moondweller
What is Catholicism Christianity without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic Christian faith without Mary?
And the proper answer is again, no.

Mary is the 2nd most unique person in all human history aside from Christ as she is the focus point of so much prophecy of the coming of Christ. To deny or deride her place is to attempt to make less of the plan of God for our salvation. She played a vital role in His coming into the world on our behalf, and she performed/performs her proper role as Giberah/Queen Mother of the Davidic king and Messiah beginning even in John 2.
Good answer. I was hoping someone would catch this. Mary is not "necessary and unique" only to Catholicism, but to Christianity as a whole.

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Old Nov 19, '10, 6:39 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

Here is link to a wonderful explanation of Mary and her role in Christianity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
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Old Nov 19, '10, 7:34 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

"Without Mary, there is no Christian faith (Catholic or otherwise), because there is no Christ."

An Epiphany!
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Old Nov 19, '10, 8:43 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

Excellent responses, but I think the question is begged; do individual Catholics have to pray to Mary? To which the answer is an absolute “no”. It’s interesting to me, having cantored for 30+ years, that, despite the fact that there are only 3 “Mary-centric” holidays out of 365 days/year, <3%, on those days I’ll see the congregations increase a significant percentage. No. I’m afraid it’s not because God is calling lost sheep to the fold (though it’s possible in some cases). It’s far more sinister. These are faces I have never seen before and never see again. They come (or are sent) to witness Catholic “Mary worship”. Never mind the fact that, except in the creed, the confiteor (I confess…) and the actual scripture readings, Mary isn’t mentioned even once throughout most Masses, people get a very skewed image cemented in their minds about Catholicism being all about Mary.

We have Marian dogmas which must be believed to be Catholic, and if you do the research, they DO make sense; but all they are doing is acknowledging how truly awesome God is.

However, Catholic prayer always begins and ends and has every single component in between: to, for and about God. All the rest is artifice to help us focus better on God, not unlike the way Jesus used clay (mud) to heal one man’s blindness (John 9:1-38). Was the clay magic? No; but sometimes we need those devices to feel connected with God better.

So, if an individual Catholic feels most comfortable praying directly to God at all times without extra intercessors; we are welcome to do so as individuals.

It should be noted that the overriding message of Mary is to pray more and say “yes” to God. These are the fruits displayed by venerating Mary. Now, contrast that with “Santa Clause” and I think you might find clearer discernment.
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Old Nov 19, '10, 8:47 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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without Mary?
Would you have us remove from divine revelation all mentions of Mary? I refuse.
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Old Nov 19, '10, 11:20 am
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Default Re: The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

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So, without Mary there is no Catholicism? She's preeminent. All of Catholicism rests on the consent of a woman.
"preeminent" is the wrong word here, at least theologically speaking.

I would use the word "essential". Christianity rests on the Salvation of humanity through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An essential element of the incarnation is the mother of God.
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