Question on the Vatican Flag

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

Hello,

I have a question concerning the ways to address or confront the Papal (Vatican) flag. I have seen students at my school and elsewhere showing great reverence to the Papal flag. For example, one of my classmates went so far as to kiss the flag while casually passing by, while another bowed to it. I do not think this is wrong, however, I question the CORRECT way to show respect for the flag, or even if there is a correct way.

On a side note, I am looking into purchasing a flag to fly outside of my house. Is there any proper procedure to taking it down, putting it up, etc.?

I understand this is a bit of a strange topic, but I would appreciate any opinions, laws, etc.

I also apologize if this is in the wrong forum, this just seemed the most proper.

Thank You, and GOD bless!

~ Pius

[MarkThompson]

The yellow-and-white flag I think you're talking about is not a religious emblem (it's not the "flag of Catholicism"); it's the flag of Vatican City as a political entity, and was adopted in 1929. Nor is it the Pope's personal flag. Therefore, it's not right to show it veneration (kissing it, making the sign of the cross when you pass it), and it would be inappropriate to fly it at your own house unless you also properly display the American flag -- good flag etiquette says that you don't just hoist the flag of a foreign country by itself.

[Domnall]

In addition to what mark says

If you do fly a Vatican flag, and choose to fly an American one, make sure both are the same size. Also, don't have one flying higher than another, or on the same flag pole.

[AJV]

Originally Posted by Bl Pope Pius IX

Hello,

I have a question concerning the ways to address or confront the Papal (Vatican) flag. I have seen students at my school and elsewhere showing great reverence to the Papal flag. For example, one of my classmates went so far as to kiss the flag while casually passing by, while another bowed to it. I do not think this is wrong, however, I question the CORRECT way to show respect for the flag, or even if there is a correct way.

On a side note, I am looking into purchasing a flag to fly outside of my house. Is there any proper procedure to taking it down, putting it up, etc.?

I understand this is a bit of a strange topic, but I would appreciate any opinions, laws, etc.

I also apologize if this is in the wrong forum, this just seemed the most proper.

Thank You, and GOD bless!

~ Pius

You're in Boston?

In any case, as the previous poster said. For that matter, even if it was the Pope's personal flag, it would be incorrect to venerate it. The primary symbol of authority of the Pope that you would venerate with a kiss is the ring, because that denotes his spiritual link to the Church.

To be honest, while I understand that many people and parishes like to show their loyalty to the Holy Father, I find the idea of the flying the Vatican flag or that of the Holy See on a regular basis to be somewhat odd. Our loyalty to the Pope is not in his role as a Head of State but as Vicar of Christ and that's adequately expressed in our liturgies. IMHO.

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

Thank you both, and to respond to the 'American Flag' situation, I am already flying the American flag, however, not on a flag pole just off my house. However, I have NEVER (with the exeption of Church owned lands) seen a Papal flag waving. So the main reason I intend to wave it, is to outwardly show the presence of the Church in regular American homes.

Also, I was very surprised one day, about a month ago, that a fellow I attend Church with did NOT know the Vatican had a flag. I am not sure if this is as shocking to you as it is to me .

Recently I have had a strange fascination in Church history (primarily the Papal States and Pius IX, shocker, I know ) but as a result of this I seem to have more pride in being ROMAN than being AMERICAN, even though I have never been outside American borders. Do not get me wrong, I love America, I say the pledge louder than anyone else I know(especially "under God").

Anyway, thank you for your quick responses.

~ Pius

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

You're in Boston?

I am in the Archdiocese of Boston, but not the city. Too crowded for me.

~ Pius

[Apollos]

The Vatican City State is a separate country, like Canada, Bangladesh, or Liechtenstein.

I am an Amurkin. Therefore I will NEVER fly the Vatican flag on the same flagpole as Old Glory, nor will I kiss or bow to that flag under any circumstances unless there is a shotgun to my head.

Your friend's act of reverence is Technically Incorrect, and if I was there I'd lesson him a thing or two about kissing other nations' flags.

The correct way to honor the flag of a foreign country is to stand at attention, with your hands at your sides, as their flag is raised up the pole.

Ain't you never been to a hockey game?

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

Originally Posted by Apollos

The Vatican City State is a separate country, like Canada, Bangladesh, or Liechtenstein.

I am an Amurkin. Therefore I will NEVER fly the Vatican flag on the same flagpole as Old Glory, nor will I kiss or bow to that flag under any circumstances unless there is a shotgun to my head.

Your friend's act of reverence is Technically Incorrect, and if I was there I'd lesson him a thing or two about kissing other nations' flags.

The correct way to honor the flag of a foreign country is to stand at attention, with your hands at your sides, as their flag is raised up the pole.

Ain't you never been to a hockey game?

I understand that the Vatican is a seperate country, however something about the Vatican just seems more pure, more glorious, and more fitting for me.

Personally I dont think it is right to bow to any flag. Saluting, having your fist over your heart, etc. are all acceptable, but bowing? no thank you.

To me, be it incorrect or unlawful, the Vatican represents more than a nation. It represents everything that the Church used to be and (if it be God's will) could be again.

I love the Church, and I dont see how to be more proud of the Church than to wave the flag of the nation that houses the Holy Father.

I shall reiterate, however, I already have an American flag waving.

~ Pius

[MarkThompson]

Originally Posted by Bl Pope Pius IX

I understand that the Vatican is a seperate country, however something about the Vatican just seems more pure, more glorious, and more fitting for me.

Personally I dont think it is right to bow to any flag. Saluting, having your fist over your heart, etc. are all acceptable, but bowing? no thank you.

To me, be it incorrect or unlawful, the Vatican represents more than a nation. It represents everything that the Church used to be and (if it be God's will) could be again.

I love the Church, and I dont see how to be more proud of the Church than to wave the flag of the nation that houses the Holy Father.

I shall reiterate, however, I already have an American flag waving.

~ Pius

For the rules (not legally mandatory, but you asked) on how to display the flag of another country along with the American flag, see 4 U.S.C. § 7.

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

Originally Posted by MarkThompson

For the rules (not legally mandatory, but you asked) on how to display the flag of another country along with the American flag, see 4 U.S.C. § 7.

Thank you for this, however, I didn't see it answer this: What if I ONLY fly the Papal flag and not have the American flag visible? Or what if I have the American flag attached to my house (near the front door, of course) and then fly the Vatican Flag on the flag pole itself?

As I said before, thank you and everyone for their answers

~ Pius

[JReducation]

Actually there are some technicalities here that are not being addressed.

The official salute for the Vatican flag and that of many other countries too is to go down on one knee and kiss the upper right-hand tip of the flag, just as our salute is with hand over heart for the US Flag. Other countries have their own postures.

The Vatican Secretariat of State also demands that every Catholic Church that exhibits a national flag inside the church, must also have the Vatican flag. It's either both or none.

Actually, the USA also recognizes dual citizenship as long as the person comes about it naturally, meaning that the other country is granting the citizenship for whatever reasons. Americans who are assigned to Vatican City can be Vatican citizens and US Citizens. Citizenship is granted to those who live and work within the City.

There is a civil government who grants the citizenship and passport. Vatican City has its own president, President Giovanni Lajolo. He is the Head of Government, much like the Prime Minister of the UK is the Head of Government, not the Head of State.

One has to be careful, because there are two flags that look quite similar. The flag of the Holy See is almost the same, but the keys are reversed. The gold key is in dexter position. At Catholic University of America, they fly the Flag of the Holy See, because it is a Pontifical University.

In many Catholic countries the Flag of the Holy See has been reveered along with the national flag. My guess is that because Boston has such a large Italian and Portuguese population, this may be a carry-over from the old country, before the rise of Socialism in Italy and Portugal.

I don't see any harm in it any more than I see the harm of Jewish institutions that fly the Israeli flag and synagogues and temples all having both the US and Israeli flag. For the very orthodox Jew, the Israeli flag is not just a civil symbol, it's the symbol of a people. I can see how the Vatican flag or the Flag of the Holy See can also be such a symbol for many immigrants who were displaced to America. In places like Boston, the one thing that kept them adrift was Catholicism.

Just interesting tidbits.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Apollos

Good Lord. What are American high schools teaching these days? Look up the rules for flying the flag of a foreign country.

I am so ashamed of my own fellow citizens I don't know what to say.

One can certainly display two flags and have allegience to two countries. Countries like Vatican City and Israel have very special meaning in the lives of many people. They are not simply civil states. They represent them as a people. To a Jew, the Israeli flag represents Jewry, not just Israel. To many Catholics either the flag of Vatican City or that of the Holy See represent Catholicism. If you have ever been in a situation where the only thing that supported you was your Catholic identity, this flag take on a very special significance in your life.

I'm remembering when I was a theology student in Rome. At the college, we were over 300 students from over 50 countries. When I first arrived, I spoke very poor Italian, just enough to get food and find a bathroom. I was suddenly thrown into a community of men from around the world and from different religious communities and others from different dioceses. Those of us who were new arrivals and could barely communicate in Italian took great comfort in that flag. We knew that no matter what, we were Catholics; therefore, we were home and safe. For me, that flag will always remind me of that sense of safety in a strange enviornment. In later years, I would be sent as a missionary to three different countries and there again was that flag to give me the same sense of belonging.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

Originally Posted by JReducation

Actually there are some technicalities here that are not being addressed.

The official salute for the Vatican flag and that of many other countries too is to go down on one knee and kiss the upper right-hand tip of the flag, just as our salute is with hand over heart for the US Flag. Other countries have their own postures.

The Vatican Secretariat of State also demands that every Catholic Church that exhibits a national flag inside the church, must also have the Vatican flag. It's either both or none.

Actually, the USA also recognizes dual citizenship as long as the person comes about it naturally, meaning that the other country is granting the citizenship for whatever reasons. Americans who are assigned to Vatican City can be Vatican citizens and US Citizens. Citizenship is granted to those who live and work within the City.

There is a civil government who grants the citizenship and passport. Vatican City has its own president, President Giovanni Lajolo. He is the Head of Government, much like the Prime Minister of the UK is the Head of Government, not the Head of State.

One has to be careful, because there are two flags that look quite similar. The flag of the Holy See is almost the same, but the keys are reversed. The gold key is in dexter position. At Catholic University of America, they fly the Flag of the Holy See, because it is a Pontifical University.

In many Catholic countries the Flag of the Holy See has been reveered along with the national flag. My guess is that because Boston has such a large Italian and Portuguese population, this may be a carry-over from the old country, before the rise of Socialism in Italy and Portugal.

I don't see any harm in it any more than I see the harm of Jewish institutions that fly the Israeli flag and synagogues and temples all having both the US and Israeli flag. For the very orthodox Jew, the Israeli flag is not just a civil symbol, it's the symbol of a people. I can see how the Vatican flag or the Flag of the Holy See can also be such a symbol for many immigrants who were displaced to America. In places like Boston, the one thing that kept them adrift was Catholicism.

Just interesting tidbits.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you very much for this. I am very happy the Vatican has made her own rules concerning her flag. My Parish does have the Papal and American flag standing in our Church. I learned earlier today that there is infact an Episcopalian (sp?) flag. I was surprised. Any way, thank you again.

On a side note, my family is actually of Irish descent, although your right we also have many Portuguese and Italians. I am surrounded primarily by Atheists or people I politely refer to as, "Plastic-Catholics", people who claim to be Catholic but in no way follow the teachings of the Church. The Church offers me spiritual sanctuary. A community where although we may all be seperated by political, national, and other obvious differences, we will be united in the Church. The flag represents, for me, that strong unity.

God Bless you.

~ Pius

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Bl Pope Pius IX

Thank you very much for this. I am very happy the Vatican has made her own rules concerning her flag. My Parish does have the Papal and American flag standing in our Church. I learned earlier today that there is infact an Episcopalian (sp?) flag. I was surprised. Any way, thank you again.

On a side note, my family is actually of Irish descent, although your right we also have many Portuguese and Italians. I am surrounded primarily by Atheists or people I politely refer to as, "Plastic-Catholics", people who claim to be Catholic but in no way follow the teachings of the Church. The Church offers me spiritual sanctuary. A community where although we may all be seperated by political, national, and other obvious differences, we will be united in the Church. The flag represents, for me, that strong unity.

God Bless you.

~ Pius

In reality, what you're saying is that the Vatican flag is not one that should be quickly dismissed by our ill-conveived American patriotism. It is one thing to be patriotic and quite another to be isolationist. There are situations when the Vatican's flag serves a strong unitive function among Catholics. After my own experience, I compare it to a lighthouse and the individual to a ship lost in the great sea of Catholics from different backgrounds. That particular flag reminds us that the Iraqi, Chinese, Cuban, Indian, Canadian, French, Venezuelan, and South African Catholic is family.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[Bl Pope Pius IX]

Originally Posted by JReducation

In reality, what you're saying is that the Vatican flag is not one that should be quickly dismissed by our ill-conveived American patriotism. It is one thing to be patriotic and quite another to be isolationist. There are situations when the Vatican's flag serves a strong unitive function among Catholics. After my own experience, I compare it to a lighthouse and the individual to a ship lost in the great sea of Catholics from different backgrounds. That particular flag reminds us that the Iraqi, Chinese, Cuban, Indian, Canadian, French, Venezuelan, and South African Catholic is family.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Exactly, I couldn't agree more!

God bless you.

~ Pius