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  #1  
Old Nov 20, '10, 11:14 am
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Pieman333272 Pieman333272 is offline
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Default How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

I am finding some ideas of Adam & Eve as the first humans being hard to believe with some ideas ancient historians have. First of all, if God revealed himself to A&E, why was it such a long time before Judaism, or even Canaan Religion, arose, and why were so many religions made in between? Second, what if the first people, or at least the first civilization, were founded far away from where Israel was post-exodus and Eden allegedly was? And what, now, if their early religion was much different from the kind A&E would have been exposed to?

I've read a lot about early civilization and religion and find it incredibly interesting but can't think of a way to reconcile these two ideas. I know some of these are pretty basic but I would like help on them.
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  #2  
Old Nov 20, '10, 1:06 pm
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didymus didymus is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

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Originally Posted by Pieman333272 View Post
I am finding some ideas of Adam & Eve as the first humans being hard to believe with some ideas ancient historians have. First of all, if God revealed himself to A&E, why was it such a long time before Judaism, or even Canaan Religion, arose, and why were so many religions made in between? Second, what if the first people, or at least the first civilization, were founded far away from where Israel was post-exodus and Eden allegedly was? And what, now, if their early religion was much different from the kind A&E would have been exposed to?

I've read a lot about early civilization and religion and find it incredibly interesting but can't think of a way to reconcile these two ideas. I know some of these are pretty basic but I would like help on them.
I'll take a shot, though I'm no expert.
First, according to scientists, there is nowhere near genetic variation among humans beings given how long they figure "true humans" have been on the scene. By now there should be actual subspecies of H. sap. So the current theory is that due to some disaster the human population was reduced to a mere tens of thousands.
Whether you take the Flood literally or not something wiped out almost all the descendants of A&E. Biblically the whole human race are descended from Lot and his family.

From this small base pop. grew different languages, cultures and religions which fits with the Tower of Babel, again whether you take it literally or metaphorically.
He might have been ready to reveal Himself, say before the time of the "confusion of tongues" but the people at the in their pride time built the Tower so they could become like God.

Maybe God had to wait to reveal Himself until the development of cities and (rudimentary) civilisations which is almost the moment He revealed Himself to Abraham.

Of course the simplest explanation is that God does things in His own time, according to His will which is what I go with. Maybe God wanted to reveal Himself sooner but humanity frustrated His plans -- we are good at that you know.






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  #3  
Old Nov 20, '10, 1:18 pm
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PowderBear PowderBear is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

Interesting. I actually had asked a friend your same 1st question very recently. The response was something along these lines:
1st Q: There actually wasn't a long gap of time between A&E and the start of Judaism. I had thought that Judaism started when Abraham and God started their covenant, but that's not true. That may be the start of the covenant that formally made Judaism, if you want to put it that way, but the Judaistic worship of YHWH existed much longer than that. It actually 'started' with Adam and Eve. They knew of God and they talked with Him. They were exiled by Him. The lineage continued to follow God (exceptions being Cain and some others, probably), and then there was Noah and the flood. Noah knew of God, too, and his family followed God. The lineage continued, and the people still followed God. There really wasn't a break in the knowledge and worship of this God, YHWH, since A&E to today.
Much of this is recorded in Genesis. Don't forget that historians consider The Bible to be a legitimate historical document.
Then you mention the other religions... There were still other religions, yes. This is because there were dissidents, tribes that used their free will to decide they didn't want to follow the God of their ancestors. Such is human nature. Or at least, that is a simple explanation. It's the way I see it, if that helps. Oh, and you can find specifics on who decided to split from God in Genesis, too. Cain is the only one that comes to mind right now though.
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Old Nov 20, '10, 2:30 pm
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Pieman333272 Pieman333272 is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

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Originally Posted by PowderBear View Post
Interesting. I actually had asked a friend your same 1st question very recently. The response was something along these lines:
1st Q: There actually wasn't a long gap of time between A&E and the start of Judaism. I had thought that Judaism started when Abraham and God started their covenant, but that's not true. That may be the start of the covenant that formally made Judaism, if you want to put it that way, but the Judaistic worship of YHWH existed much longer than that. It actually 'started' with Adam and Eve. They knew of God and they talked with Him. They were exiled by Him. The lineage continued to follow God (exceptions being Cain and some others, probably), and then there was Noah and the flood. Noah knew of God, too, and his family followed God. The lineage continued, and the people still followed God. There really wasn't a break in the knowledge and worship of this God, YHWH, since A&E to today.
Much of this is recorded in Genesis. Don't forget that historians consider The Bible to be a legitimate historical document.
Then you mention the other religions... There were still other religions, yes. This is because there were dissidents, tribes that used their free will to decide they didn't want to follow the God of their ancestors. Such is human nature. Or at least, that is a simple explanation. It's the way I see it, if that helps. Oh, and you can find specifics on who decided to split from God in Genesis, too. Cain is the only one that comes to mind right now though.
Well, I guess it may have functioned as a family religion while some of their decedents, after the flood, chose to settle elsewhere and choose to worship a different god/pantheon. I think the Tower of Babel is real but I don't accept the Flood as worldwide, rather the "local flood" interpretation. But I still question: what if it were proven the first people weren't from the Mesopotamia/Persia/Israel area we attribute A&E to today? What, then would happen to the idea of the Flood and ToB? And the significance of Israel as a land?
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Old Nov 21, '10, 2:03 am
twinc twinc is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

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Originally Posted by Pieman333272 View Post
Well, I guess it may have functioned as a family religion while some of their decedents, after the flood, chose to settle elsewhere and choose to worship a different god/pantheon. I think the Tower of Babel is real but I don't accept the Flood as worldwide, rather the "local flood" interpretation. But I still question: what if it were proven the first people weren't from the Mesopotamia/Persia/Israel area we attribute A&E to today? What, then would happen to the idea of the Flood and ToB? And the significance of Israel as a land?

nobody really knows where the original garden of Eden of Adam and Eve reaaly is or was - Adam and Eve before the fall were probably fleet of foot but naked and shoeless.After the Fall their movement and that of their family would have been somewhat restricted for their path would now be strewn with thorns and thistles - of course the flood was world wide for there were no really high mountains to impede the water finding its own level and spreading - twinc
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Old Nov 21, '10, 5:39 am
illmatic illmatic is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

Well Genesis is by and large allegorical. The point to be taken is that God created man, and man fell from God's Grace. This is the point, the existence of the world pre-man doesn't contradict or undermine that.
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Old Nov 21, '10, 1:21 pm
twinc twinc is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

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Well Genesis is by and large allegorical. The point to be taken is that God created man, and man fell from God's Grace. This is the point, the existence of the world pre-man doesn't contradict or undermine that.
allegorical according to who - not the PBC it seems - twinc
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Old Nov 23, '10, 1:56 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

Basic Catholic teaching regarding the Creation of Adam and his Original Sin is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism's search bar in link
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

When you enter a paragraph number, like "paragraph 355", and then click on the opening line,
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:

Enter the Catechism at this paragraph
Table of Contents
Index
St. Charles Borromeo Home
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  #9  
Old Nov 26, '10, 5:31 pm
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PowderBear PowderBear is offline
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Default Re: How is creation and the fall reconcilable with some ancient history?

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Originally Posted by Pieman333272 View Post
But I still question: what if it were proven the first people weren't from the Mesopotamia/Persia/Israel area we attribute A&E to today? What, then would happen to the idea of the Flood and ToB? And the significance of Israel as a land?
Well, first I have my own question: What does ToB stand for in this case? All I can think of right now is Theology of the Body, and I don't think that's what you're talking about.

Back to your question. I don't think anyone can say (with absolute certainty) where the first humans originated. There comes a point where we just have to trust that somehow, archaeology and Genesis line up. This can mean that we either just don't know enough about archaeology or don't understand Genesis well enough yet, or it can mean that there is a certain amount of allegory in Genesis (within the Church's parameters, though).
Hope that helps some.
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