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  #1  
Old Apr 21, '05, 7:59 pm
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Is it a liturgical abuse, in your view, for the laity to sign their forehead, lips, and heart before the Gospel as the priest does? It's not prescribed for anybody but the priest in the Sacramentary.
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  #2  
Old Apr 21, '05, 8:02 pm
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

No...it was done by the laity even prior to Vatican II. I do it myself.
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  #3  
Old Apr 21, '05, 9:00 pm
gelsbern gelsbern is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

This is more than just a motion, it is a silent way of saying "May the words of the Holy Gospel be in my mind, in my mouth, and in my heart,"
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Old Apr 21, '05, 9:18 pm
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Church Militant
No...it was done by the laity even prior to Vatican II. I do it myself.
Yes, but it isn't prescribed in the GIRM, so as many are fond of asserting, that which is not prescribed by the rubrics, is to be prohibited, no? Or is this another example where that argument fails to be applied consistently?
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  #5  
Old Apr 21, '05, 9:24 pm
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by gelsbern
This is more than just a motion, it is a silent way of saying "May the words of the Holy Gospel be in my mind, in my mouth, and in my heart,"
I agree. However, I was surprised to find this to be prescribed for the priest, not the laity, within the rubrics. So, when the laity mimics the priest's gesture, that which is prescribed for the priest and not the laity by the rubrics, how is this different from those that would mimic the priest's gesutres such as the orans position during prayers of the liturgy?
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  #6  
Old Apr 21, '05, 9:34 pm
gelsbern gelsbern is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Paragraph 134 Under the heading of Mass with a congregation of the 2002 GIRM reads as follow (highlights mine)

Quote:

134 At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with his hands joined, says: The Lord be with you, with the people responding, And also with you. Then he says: A reading from the Holy Gospel..., making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth and breast, which everyone else does as well. The people make their acclamation: Glory to You, O Lord. The priest then incenses the book, if incense is used. Then he proclaims the gospel reading and at the end makes the acclamation: The Word of the Lord, to which all respond, Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ. The priest kisses the book, saying inaudibly:Through the words of the gospel may our sins be washed away.
In the 1975 GIRM under the heading Mass with a congregation

Quote:
95. At the lectern the priest opens the book and says: The Lord be with you. Then he says: A reading from. . ., making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast. If incense is used, he then incenses the book. After the acclamation of the people, he proclaims the gospel and at the end kisses the book, saying softly: May the words of the gospel wipe away our sins. After the reading the people make the acclamation customary to the region.
I think they added it to the 2002 GIRM so that people didn't question it when the congregation did it with the priest and I also think that the rubrics for the congregation weren't included int he 1975 GIRM as the rubrics were intended to be shown to the congregation by the example of the deacon or MC (lead altar boy).

Last edited by gelsbern; Apr 21, '05 at 9:46 pm.
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Old Apr 21, '05, 10:37 pm
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Paragraph 134 Under the heading of Mass with a congregation of the 2002 GIRM reads as follow (highlights mine)

Quote:

134 At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with his hands joined, says: The Lord be with you, with the people responding, And also with you. Then he says: A reading from the Holy Gospel..., making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth and breast, which everyone else does as well. The people make their acclamation: Glory to You, O Lord. The priest then incenses the book, if incense is used. Then he proclaims the gospel reading and at the end makes the acclamation: The Word of the Lord, to which all respond, Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ. The priest kisses the book, saying inaudibly:Through the words of the gospel may our sins be washed away.

Then I'm doing just fine and I will continue to do so.
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  #8  
Old Apr 22, '05, 12:13 am
chicago chicago is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

It probably just developed as a pious devotion by the laity to the point that it was commonly accepted as a norm.
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  #9  
Old Apr 22, '05, 8:49 am
SouthCoast SouthCoast is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

There it is, in the GIRM, quoted. End of thread. Heh. I'm fairly sure my St. Joseph Missal has this instruction in the order of mass, but I could be wrong.

In any case, the GIRM is available in PDF form, here:

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

-Michael

Last edited by SouthCoast; Apr 22, '05 at 9:00 am.
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  #10  
Old Apr 22, '05, 8:59 am
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by gelsbern
Paragraph 134 Under the heading of Mass with a congregation of the 2002 GIRM reads as follow (highlights mine) ...
Ah ... thanks gelsbern. I looked in the Sacramentary without checking the GIRM. Thanks. I've always done it but have been checking more thoroughly as of late, especially since looking into the "Gospel skits" that occur on Palm Sunday/Good Friday (grrrrr).
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  #11  
Old Apr 22, '05, 9:01 am
SouthCoast SouthCoast is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustdave1988
....especially since looking into the "Gospel skits" that occur on Palm Sunday/Good Friday (grrrrr).
Gospel skits? Could you be more specific?

-Michael
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  #12  
Old Apr 22, '05, 9:09 am
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicago
It probably just developed as a pious devotion by the laity to the point that it was commonly accepted as a norm.
Very likely. This is how the US adaptation for kneeling after the Agnus Dei came about. The rest of the world doesn't do this, much to my surprise when living in Japan. I've always remembered kneeling after the Agnust Dei, since I was a kid, but it hasn't actually been prescribed until recently for the US.
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  #13  
Old Apr 22, '05, 9:14 am
itsjustdave1988 itsjustdave1988 is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthCoast
Gospel skits? Could you be more specific?
The rubrics allow for a dialogue Gospel two days of the year: Palm Sunday and Good Friday. My parish has customarily taken much liberty in putting on a Gospel skit instead of merely reading the Gospel in dialogue form as prescribed by the rubrics. It's one of my pet peeves that I'm hoping my parish will discontinue.

For example, on Palm Sunday, the priest or deacon didn't read the Gospel, but instead the youth group put on a passion play, using a script that seemed to combine passages from Mathew and John's passion narrative. The solemnity of such a "play" is lacking, in my opinion. Others seem to really enjoy it, as it really brings to life the passion, especially for the little children who are typically bored and don't respond too well to "solemnity."
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  #14  
Old Apr 22, '05, 9:33 am
SouthCoast SouthCoast is offline
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Default Re: Sign of cross on forehead, lips, and heart

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsjustdave1988
The rubrics allow for a dialogue Gospel two days of the year: Palm Sunday and Good Friday. My parish has customarily taken much liberty in putting on a Gospel skit instead of merely reading the Gospel in dialogue form as prescribed by the rubrics. It's one of my pet peeves that I'm hoping my parish will discontinue.
We did the dialogue gospel at my parish. It was awesome.

-Michael
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