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  #1  
Old Nov 23, '10, 6:28 am
Socio_Momma Socio_Momma is offline
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Default Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM2UU20101123

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict's landmark acknowledgement that the use of condoms is sometimes morally justifiable to stop AIDS is valid not only for gay male prostitutes but for heterosexuals and transsexuals too, the Vatican said on Tuesday. (quoted from the above link).

Thought this might be of interest given the discussions over the last few days, Lombardi is who gave the clarification.
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  #2  
Old Nov 23, '10, 6:35 am
irishpatrick irishpatrick is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

I just heard reported on the radio that the Vatican/Pope has just made a major doctrinal change regarding condoms.
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  #3  
Old Nov 23, '10, 6:53 am
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

I am deeply troubled by the statements Benedict has made. I understand the theoretical argument that the individual prostitute (male, female, other) is exhibitnig a kernel of morality in considering the health of the other, but even this consideration, in my estimation, is perverted.

I think the more appropriate analogy is this:

Gangster A puts a mob hit on Gangster B, but in commission of the crime, he shoots him in the back of the head instead of the front, so his mother can have an open casket funeral.

Can we now say that Gangster A has a moral bone in his body?


Or, Pregnant Woman X decided to abort her spina bifida child because she did not want it to suffer after birth.

Can we now say that this abortion has a moral component?

I understand this is the Pope's personal opinion on the matter, and subject to error. But the media will present it as an infallible truth being passed down. This is an incredibly slippery slope.
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  #4  
Old Nov 23, '10, 6:59 am
irishpatrick irishpatrick is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Quote:
Originally Posted by tm30 View Post
I am deeply troubled by the statements Benedict has made. I understand the theoretical argument that the individual prostitute (male, female, other) is exhibitnig a kernel of morality in considering the health of the other, but even this consideration, in my estimation, is perverted.

I think the more appropriate analogy is this:

Gangster A puts a mob hit on Gangster B, but in commission of the crime, he shoots him in the back of the head instead of the front, so his mother can have an open casket funeral.

Can we now say that Gangster A has a moral bone in his body?


Or, Pregnant Woman X decided to abort her spina bifida child because she did not want it to suffer after birth.

Can we now say that this abortion has a moral component?

I understand this is the Pope's personal opinion on the matter, and subject to error. But the media will present it as an infallible truth being passed down. This is an incredibly slippery slope.
It seems though, that with each defense that comes from the Vatican, the matter becomes less and less just a Papal opinion.
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  #5  
Old Nov 23, '10, 7:06 am
brendan1986 brendan1986 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

I guess we just have to trust Benedict is bringing the church in the right direction, and might end up saving millions of lives. Although nobody is sure.

I'll be praying for him.
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  #6  
Old Nov 23, '10, 7:31 am
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Which is the greater evil, in the case of a female prostitute?

A) Allowing the possible transmission of HIV?

B) Preventing the transmission of life?


I submit that it's "B", otherwise, Humana Vitae gets turned on its head.
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  #7  
Old Nov 23, '10, 7:40 am
NewEnglandPriest NewEnglandPriest is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Quote:
Originally Posted by tm30 View Post
Which is the greater evil, in the case of a female prostitute?

A) Allowing the possible transmission of HIV?

B) Preventing the transmission of life?


I submit that it's "B", otherwise, Humana Vitae gets turned on its head.
Preventing transmission of life is not always immoral. Afterall, rape victims have Church permission to receive nonabortificient contraception.
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  #8  
Old Nov 23, '10, 7:40 am
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Abyssinia Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishpatrick View Post
I just heard reported on the radio that the Vatican/Pope has just made a major doctrinal change regarding condoms.
What has he changed?

Does the Pope not mean female and transsexual prostitutes? He has not mentioned HIV discordant couples, he has not mentioned married couples in general.
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  #9  
Old Nov 23, '10, 7:52 am
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Will B Will B is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Not sure what to think about this condom issue.

I joined the Catholic Church because of Pope Paul's Humanae Vita written in the 1960s.. Now it seems, if you are infected with HIV you may use condoms??

Am I missing something??

The teaching used to be, if one partner had HIV (husband or wife) the practice was to abstain out of love, not wanting to give your virus to your spouse.

Or.. If Pope Benedict talking about relations outside of marriage, which is a sin already. In this case, if you sin do it in such a way not to cause more damage then sin already causes.. This could be the justification of sex outside of marriage

Am I missing something ??
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  #10  
Old Nov 23, '10, 8:01 am
Jim Gnadinger Jim Gnadinger is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

The Popes comments in an interview are not infallible and thus do not affect church doctrine. It is my opinion that the gist of Pope Benedict's comments are that the act of sexual engagement without the openness to life is wrong, but if you are HIV positive and are determined to act against God's teachings, then by all means protect your partner from transmittable disease. On the grounds of morality, it is wrong no matter how you view it. The question is that which does greater damage. Having unprotected sex has the potential to affect the innocent while protected sex does a better job of constraining the evil to those who are engaged in it.
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  #11  
Old Nov 23, '10, 8:18 am
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Abyssinia Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

I saw this comment o Dmaian Thompson's blog and it makes sense:

Right, when Lombardi refers to "masculine and feminine" and then later refers to "a woman, a man, or a transsexual" is he still referring to prostitutes?

I rather think he is.

Therefore the original point still stands.

The Pope is suggesting that morality can be awakened even in the most sinful scenarios. That's the top and bottom of his contemplation.

That there "may" be a "basis" to even consider that a person - blind to sin on so many levels - might start their moral re-awakening in such ironic (my word) circumstances.

All we now know is that the Pope wasn't talking exclusively about male prostitution.

He was clearly talking about prostitution, though.

And only prostitution.



Nowhere did the Pope or Fr Lombardi mention condoms being acceptable for HIV discordant couples. Condoms have a 15% failure rate. I can not beleive that the Pope is actually saying to prostitutes of all sexes it is okay to use condoms, or HIV discordant couples. He is talking about the intention. He is not talking about a morality of a condom. This is only mine and this other person's opinion, we need further clarification.
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  #12  
Old Nov 23, '10, 8:19 am
tm30 tm30 is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gnadinger View Post
The Popes comments in an interview are not infallible and thus do not affect church doctrine. It is my opinion that the gist of Pope Benedict's comments are that the act of sexual engagement without the openness to life is wrong, but if you are HIV positive and are determined to act against God's teachings, then by all means protect your partner from transmittable disease. On the grounds of morality, it is wrong no matter how you view it. The question is that which does greater damage. Having unprotected sex has the potential to affect the innocent while protected sex does a better job of constraining the evil to those who are engaged in it.
In a case of prostitution, who is innocent?

And if you are married to an HIV positive spouse, perhaps instead of looking for ways around moral guidelines for the sake of physical pleasure, that couple could offer up their enormous cross and abstain.

In this day and age, given that most people will simply ignore the fact that these are not infallible statements, and don't care to know the definition, the media will present it as ex cathedra, nonetheless. With that in mind, perhaps our Holy Father (and future Pontiffs) should not place themselves in situation where personal candor can become distorted. This is why they have apostolic letters and encylicals. Talking with lay authors or anyone that can manipulate his views at a personal level is too dangerous in this screwed up media universe.
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  #13  
Old Nov 23, '10, 8:22 am
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Corki Corki is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socio_Momma View Post
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AM2UU20101123

(Reuters) - Pope Benedict's landmark acknowledgement that the use of condoms is sometimes morally justifiable to stop AIDS is valid not only for gay male prostitutes but for heterosexuals and transsexuals too, the Vatican said on Tuesday. (quoted from the above link).

Thought this might be of interest given the discussions over the last few days, Lombardi is who gave the clarification.
Lots of media analysis of this topic.

Two very important things to keep in mind.

#1 The Pope never said "justifiable". This was the result of a mistranslation from the original German to Italian.

#2 The Pope said the intent to prevent infection might sometimes have basis but the act of using a condom was still not moral.

So, yes, the intent of anyone, homosexual or heterosexual to prevent infection can sometimes have merit but this does not change the immorality of using a condom.
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"It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life." Pope Francis
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  #14  
Old Nov 23, '10, 8:39 am
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Abyssinia Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Using a condom is a lesser evil than transmitting HIV to a sexual partner — even if that means a woman averting a possible pregnancy, the Vatican said Tuesday, signaling a seismic shift in papal teaching as it further explained Pope Benedict XVI's comments.

http://hosted2.ap.org/txdam/f02866e5...4a66980f6af266

I have learned not to trust the AP. I can not find any source of where Fr Lombardi makes this claim.

Look at the AP article title: Vatican: Everyone can use condoms to prevent HIV

I am going to cry......
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  #15  
Old Nov 23, '10, 8:44 am
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pnewton pnewton is offline
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Default Re: Pope's Comments Apply to Females & Transexuals too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abyssinia View Post
I have learned not to trust the AP.
This is the only kernel of truth I can find in the recent reporting of the Holy Father.
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