Pervasive 'non-campaign' fractured rules of secrecy (Greeley)

Brad · #1 Apr 22, '05, 9:05 am

http://www.suntimes.com/output/greel...greeley21.html

Please, please, please reign in this man. Using the very most Holy Pope's words against himself as to possibly be chosen by the Holy Spirit. Is there anything sacred upon which Greeley will not tread? Catholics should not be subscribing to this newspaper.

Finally, two more questions: Was the "non-campaign" necessary, and secondly was the Holy Spirit behind the outcome?

Given the absence of an organization and a clear candidate among the progressives and the conservative tilt of the Sacred College, the "non-campaign" may have been exhilarating but unessential.

As to the Holy Spirit -- at the risk of being told by hate mail that I do not deserve to be a priest -- I submit that to claim God's spirit for one's own cause comes dangerously close to idolatry. The spirit blows whither he will. No one can claim his patronage.

As Ratzinger has said, it is wrong to assert that the spirit is responsible for the outcome of a papal election because there have been popes the spirit could not have chosen. Yet we can always pray to the spirit to help and protect Benedict XVI.

pear · #2 Apr 22, '05, 9:12 am

That man is so awful. It's hard not to have really bad thoughts about him. Guess we'd better pray that he has a conversion of heart.

jlw · #3 Apr 22, '05, 9:20 am

My mouth is just agape. I seriously have to collect myself for a minute before responding this....

OK....Just an absolutly rediculous fellow. That's as charible as I can be.

The Holy Spirit works. He wills. He allows. He is NEVER in error.

Men can be.

Prometheum_x · #4 Apr 22, '05, 9:25 am

He didn't say that the Holy Spirit didn't pick the Pope. He was stating that we should not be so quick to claim the Holy Spirit's backing for our actions.

He even refers to Ratzinger comments on the subject -- and not out of context, as I have read the quotation that Greeley refers to -- to similar effect.

Let history be the judge of whether it was the Holy Spirit, not our own enthusiasm.

hlgomez · #5 Apr 22, '05, 9:25 am

Oh, so Greeley can read the mind of God?

Pio

Lisa4Catholics · #6 Apr 22, '05, 9:27 am

Apparently the Holy Spirit decided to hang with Greeley the day of the conclave

shannin · #7 Apr 22, '05, 9:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

http://www.suntimes.com/output/greel...greeley21.html

Please, please, please reign in this man. Using the very most Holy Pope's words against himself as to possibly be chosen by the Holy Spirit. Is there anything sacred upon which Greeley will not tread? Catholics should not be subscribing to this newspaper.

Finally, two more questions: Was the "non-campaign" necessary, and secondly was the Holy Spirit behind the outcome?

Given the absence of an organization and a clear candidate among the progressives and the conservative tilt of the Sacred College, the "non-campaign" may have been exhilarating but unessential.

As to the Holy Spirit -- at the risk of being told by hate mail that I do not deserve to be a priest -- I submit that to claim God's spirit for one's own cause comes dangerously close to idolatry. The spirit blows whither he will. No one can claim his patronage.

As Ratzinger has said, it is wrong to assert that the spirit is responsible for the outcome of a papal election because there have been popes the spirit could not have chosen. Yet we can always pray to the spirit to help and protect Benedict XVI.

Well, we know better.

I don't know why this shocks me. Father Greely has said other things in the past that I've found distasteful and hard to believe that a priest would publicly say.

I'm just going to continue to keep loving the Holy Father and praying for him.

Lamb100 · #8 Apr 22, '05, 9:30 am

I'm a new Catholic so hopefully someone can clear things up for me. Now that that awful statement by Greeley has been posted, we really do need to know then-Cardinal Ratzinger's exact words--what's the actual quote? I've always wondered--*did* the Holy Spirit choose the "bad Popes"?

**buffalo** · #9 Apr 22, '05, 9:32 am

Grace is present at the election. The Cardinals can choose to cooperate with this grace or refuse it.

toppro77 · #10 Apr 22, '05, 9:36 am

Lets throw a hypothetical question out here. Lets suppose for a minute that the Heirarchy of the church was infiltrated by the Masons, who detest the Catholic Faith with a passion. As a matter of fact, if we read some of their own documents, we will see the in them the plot to destroy the church from within.

Now for the Hypothetical question. If the majority of the Cardinals were all Masons, or affiliated with the Masons in some way, such as being their cronies, and these were the men involved in choosing the next pope, could we say that the Holy Ghost was guiding them, if they had pre determined who they wanted as pope from their own ranks? If the Masonic Cardinals out numbered the good Cardinals, then there would be no way to have a good pope elected would there?

Comments please

cursillo255 · #11 Apr 22, '05, 9:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamb100

I'm a new Catholic so hopefully someone can clear things up for me. Now that that awful statement by Greeley has been posted, we really do need to know then-Cardinal Ratzinger's exact words--what's the actual quote? I've always wondered--*did* the Holy Spirit choose the "bad Popes"?

"Bad popes" may have been personally defecient and perhaps even morally corrupt, but they did not teach error. (doctrinally or ex cathedra). So, who's to say whether or not the Holy Spirit did or did not "pick" all the Popes ?? Unitl proven otherwise, - I will just assume the Holy Spirit fullfilled his role. It's called Faith.

Della · #12 Apr 22, '05, 9:41 am

I do believe that the Holy Spirit would certainly move the hearts and minds of the Conclave to elect a good and holy man to the papacy. I also believe they can muck it up and not do that. However, in modern times at least, they have elected good men with whom I am sure the Holy Spirit was pleased.

And it should be noted that personal goodness or holiness has nothing to do with the charism of infallibility. Even a very bad pope will not (none of the bad ones ever did) contradict Church teachings in any pronouncements of an official kind. That truth is what we should take our comfort from. Although, having men like our 20th century popes, good and holy men all, has rather spoiled us. But, I'll take that sort of spoiling any day!

As for Greeley's comments, he is right, but he could have expressed his thoughts better considering the circumstances. He doesn't mind treading on delicate sensibilities, which I find quite unattractive in the man.

OriginalJS · #13 Apr 22, '05, 9:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cursillo255

"Bad popes" may have been personally defecient and perhaps even morally corrupt, but they did not teach error. (doctrinally or ex cathedra). So, who's to say whether or not the Holy Spirit did or did not "pick" all the Popes ?? Unitl proven otherwise, - I will just assume the Holy Spirit fullfilled his role. It's called Faith.

I think St. Augustine taught that the most effective teaching was by example. If that is true, some Popes certainly taught error (e.g. John XII, Stephen VII and Alexander VI.)

mozier · #14 Apr 22, '05, 9:43 am

Fr. Greeley has always had something against Pope Benedict. In one of his non-fiction books, he went on about how the Holy Father was such a progressive during Vatican II yet was now such a conservative. The implication was the pope was somehow being hypocritical.

Needless to say, I don't think that the pope has ever said anything about Fr. Greeley.

marcadam · #15 Apr 22, '05, 9:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

As Ratzinger has said, it is wrong to assert that the spirit is responsible for the outcome of a papal election because there have been popes the spirit could not have chosen. Yet we can always pray to the spirit to help and protect Benedict XVI.

A selective quote of a selective quote... to be fair, Greeley did not say what the title of this post implies. What he said was a selective quote of Ratzinger himself, that the Holy Spirit doesn't select any popes, which is true. The Holy Spirit of God animates and protects His Church from error. Popes are guaranteed not to teach error ex cathedra, but it is an entirely negative charism. An individual pope could be a complete mess, and this has happened in our history.

But this part is somewhat more problematic:

Quote:

I submit that to claim God's spirit for one's own cause comes dangerously close to idolatry. The spirit blows whither he will. No one can claim his patronage.

But the Catholic Church does just that, and rightly so. Nowhere is the Holy Spirit more present than in His Church, His Bride. He probably meant individuals claiming the support of the spirit in their cause, but it is nonetheless sad to see a priest trying so desperately to "ride outside the car" of his church. I wish I could find the original Ratzinger quote (anyone?) because it is much more clear about the role of the Holy Spirit within the church.

In general, the Greeley quoted here is all about planting the seeds of doubt. Do I think that as a priest Greeley is more or less useless outside being an ex opere operata sacrament dispenser? Pretty much. But even though I disagree with his sentiment, he really didn't say anything blasphemous here.

Here.