Pervasive 'non-campaign' fractured rules of secrecy (Greeley) - Page 5

Brad · #61 Apr 25, '05, 9:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_19_59

Are we to believe that someone can be divinely instituted as Pope without being picked by God?

Well Alexander VI picked himself with the use of a lot of money.

"Lots of money" is not the mechanism used to select Popes and never has been. Violating Church Tradition and law are outside the scope of what I am arguing. I am talking about Popes selected trough proper Church procedures as written in Church Canon law.

**Ani Ibi** · #62 Apr 25, '05, 9:46 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_19_59

Well Alexander VI picked himself with the use of a lot of money.

Alexander only thought he picked himself with the use of a lot of money.

God does not choose the qualified. He qualifies the chosen.

Brad · #63 Apr 25, '05, 9:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicago

I think that history certainly proves that "yes", while God may have permitted the selection of some popes, he wouldn't necessarily have chosen them himself.

I forward that perhaps your interpretation of what "divine institution" means is too overreaching. This does not necessarily indicate that God handpicked the pope. It merely means that he has established the papacy and ensured his protection of it's validity in the person who was selected. Cardinal Ratzinger's interpretation, then, is quite on the mark. And don't forget that his office was largely responsible for the catechism's doctrinal integrity.

I'm having a hard time even believing Ratzinger made those exact comments on Bavarian television. It doesn't sound like anything he's said before or since. For example, saying "Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined".

That is shocking coming from him. The Holy Spirit has got to do more than that. Why is the Holy Spirit so powerful throughout the ages and throughout the Church but all he can do in the conclave, which is responsible for picking the suprmeme authority of the Church and the Vicar of Christ, is keep it from being totally ruined?

**Ani Ibi** · #64 Apr 25, '05, 9:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheum_x

All who are in heaven are saints. If you are not in heaven after the judgment, then you are in hell and are thus an evil man.

What happened to Purgatory?

Brad · #65 Apr 25, '05, 10:00 am

It seems that many good theologians seem to think that, although the Holy Spirit does not personally pick the Pope, He will protect the Pope (and therefore the Church) once selected. I fail to see much of a difference between the Holy Spirit picking a Pope and this position. This position basically says "He picked him and then he fixed him" versus "He picked someone already ready".

If the Holy Spirit allows a "bad" choice to be made, but then protects the Pope and the faithful from "too much damage" or "any doctrinal error" then He is still acting personally through the Pope. Whether He is personal before the selection or after doesn't much matter to my position. I'm basically arguing that He is with the Pope personally when he is pope. If everyone agrees with this, we can stop our discussion.

Prometheum_x · #66 Apr 25, '05, 10:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ani Ibi

What happened to Purgatory?

Nothing happened to it. I simply didn't mention it for the sake of simplicity as I assumed that others would realize it was implied. Those who are in purgatory are assured of heaven; they share a common destiny with those who have no need of purgatory.

Prometheum_x · #67 Apr 25, '05, 10:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad

It seems that many good theologians seem to think that, although the Holy Spirit does not personally pick the Pope, He will protect the Pope (and therefore the Church) once selected. I fail to see much of a difference between the Holy Spirit picking a Pope and this position. This position basically says "He picked him and then he fixed him" versus "He picked someone already ready".

If the Holy Spirit allows a "bad" choice to be made, but then protects the Pope and the faithful from "too much damage" or "any doctrinal error" then He is still acting personally through the Pope. Whether He is personal before the selection or after doesn't much matter to my position. I'm basically arguing that He is with the Pope personally when he is pope. If everyone agrees with this, we can stop our discussion.

I basically agree with that. Regardless of the exact nature of the Holy Spirit's involvement in the selection of the Pope, this is still Christ's Church. He will preserve his bride and use her to accomplish his purposes in this world -- the salvation of souls and the glorification of God. Against this the forces of this world cannot stand. Though they plot and scheme, politic and bribe, they cannot steer this Ship off course. Our Pope is Christ's Vicar, it is God's papacy.

Detroit Sue · #68 Apr 25, '05, 11:00 am

Greeley's comments sound strangely akin to envy. Perhaps he's never experienced the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Brad · #69 Apr 25, '05, 11:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheum_x

I basically agree with that. Regardless of the exact nature of the Holy Spirit's involvement in the selection of the Pope, this is still Christ's Church. He will preserve his bride and use her to accomplish his purposes in this world -- the salvation of souls and the glorification of God. Against this the forces of this world cannot stand. Though they plot and scheme, politic and bribe, they cannot steer this Ship off course. Our Pope is Christ's Vicar, it is God's papacy.

Fitz · #70 Apr 25, '05, 11:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimee

How does he continue to get by with this stuff

I thnk he answers only to himself. He is what I call a renegade priest. I have written letters of complaint to him several times this year. He doesn't answer them. I don't think he can be bothered with conservative orthodox Catholics.

Here's his website:
http://www.agreeley.com/
He posts links to his newspaper articles and his sermons. Hope you can keep your blood pressure down. I can't, so I don't read him anymore.

chicago · #71 Apr 25, '05, 1:41 pm

Brad,

While I don't think anyone (including Ratzinger) would disagree that the Holy Spirit is involved, I fear that you may be trying to over spiritualize the process to suggest that the pope is necessarily an "inspired" selection or necessarily positively guiding the pope in all of his ways. I think that what others like myself and the now pope would say is that the process is very human, also. Grace builds upon nature and while the Spirit works with what He has, the issue can't be forced and the very human aspects of the Church's existance need to be respected as a real part of what goes on.

In the end, I would agree that the Spirit is with the pope. But that doesn't necssarily mean that the choice in pope is not merely part of God's permissive will or that the pope will surely know what to do as if the Lord is leading his every step. Even our Catholic understanding of inspiration in Scripture isn't necessarily so heavily spiritualized.

HagiaSophia · #72 Apr 25, '05, 9:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamb100

I'm a new Catholic so hopefully someone can clear things up for me. Now that that awful statement by Greeley has been posted, we really do need to know then-Cardinal Ratzinger's exact words--what's the actual quote? I've always wondered--*did* the Holy Spirit choose the "bad Popes"?

This thread discussed the question and contains quotes from the then Cardinal Ratzinger and Fr. Neuhaus:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...ht=holy+spirit

John_19_59 · #73 Apr 26, '05, 1:12 am

"Lots of money" is not the mechanism used to select Popes and never has been. Violating Church Tradition and law are outside the scope of what I am arguing. I am talking about Popes selected trough proper Church procedures as written in Church Canon law.

Alexander was elected by a conclave.
Conclaves do elect bad Popes - for whatever reason.
And as they are all supposed to be secret I don't think you can ever be certain the Holy Spirit did the electing.

Alexander only thought he picked himself with the use of a lot of money.
God does not choose the qualified. He qualifies the chosen

No - Alexander did pick himself. Unless God removed his free will and that of the electors.

The grace of the Holy Spirit can be (and has been) ignored in the past.
Alexander VI was a very bad Pope.

Brad · #74 Apr 26, '05, 1:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicago

Brad,

While I don't think anyone (including Ratzinger) would disagree that the Holy Spirit is involved, I fear that you may be trying to over spiritualize the process to suggest that the pope is necessarily an "inspired" selection or necessarily positively guiding the pope in all of his ways. I think that what others like myself and the now pope would say is that the process is very human, also. Grace builds upon nature and while the Spirit works with what He has, the issue can't be forced and the very human aspects of the Church's existance need to be respected as a real part of what goes on.

In the end, I would agree that the Spirit is with the pope. But that doesn't necssarily mean that the choice in pope is not merely part of God's permissive will or that the pope will surely know what to do as if the Lord is leading his every step. Even our Catholic understanding of inspiration in Scripture isn't necessarily so heavily spiritualized.

If you agree with post #65, we can stop discussing for now. I assess the following:

1) I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Greeley has ulterior motives and is being purposely misleading in saying the Holy Spirit does not pick the Pope and using Ratzinger's own comments against him. Even if it were true, this is a rotten thing to do.

2) I'm still not sold that Ratzinger's comments were literal. I know of nothing he has written that comes even close to saying anything like all the Holy Spirit could do is keep a process from being ruined.

3) The world is teeming with liberal theologians that want to say certain Popes were good and some were bad and therefore we can select our teaching from the Popes we like. That is the primary motivation behind a liberal theologian saying the Holy Spirit doesn't pick the Pope.

4) I KNOW it is a human process. I'm not saying the Holy Spirit comes down and plucks someone out of the air. The fact remains that the Holy Spirit personally affects the Pope because the Pope has SUPREME authority over the Church and souls. All events on earth concerning humans occur through and with human processes. Human and spiritual are not mutually exclusive. It is not possible to over--spiritualize a process as significant as selecting a Pope.

5) Pope Benedict XVI said on Sunday they had to pick the person that Christ wanted. If that doesn't require the Holy Spirit, I don't know what does.

Brad · #75 Apr 26, '05, 1:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HagiaSophia

This thread discussed the question and contains quotes from the then Cardinal Ratzinger and Fr. Neuhaus:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...ht=holy+spirit

I understand I'm in the heavy minority here (I read all the posts on that thread) but I do not believe that God would allow someone in a divinely instituted office that has supreme authority over the Church and supreme power in the care of souls that He did not want in there. Even if the Pope was "bad", I maintain that God wanted him in there at that time. I am not saying the Holy Spirit writes a note to the Cardinals. I'm saying that throught the prayers of the faithful and the saints, God's will is done. The Pope selected IS the one that He wants.

On further note, I find in incredibly scandalous that the vast majority of the very faithful would believe otherwise. The implications of believing otherwise are nothing short of a radical undermining of the papacy when and if a Pope is selected that the people do not like.

God allows the consecration with a "bad" priest. God allows the Pope to be selected with "bad" cardinals.

I still think some of this may be communication issues. Let's take an example. Let's say God would have picked person A to be Pope. However, the cardinals do not pray very well and the Christians are very wicked and all are undeserving of persona A. So God says we get person B instead. Not his first choice but still his choice. And the faithful MUST believe this, otherwise any single one of us could say Pope Benedict XVI is not the Pope and still be faithful Catholics. Yikes!