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  #16  
Old Jun 26, '04, 11:44 am
SeanG SeanG is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Pointing the various 'catholic' denominations raises some interesting questions and points.

Why does the author of the list believe that there are so many 'denominations'?

It could be that what is simply a rite within the Catholic Church is seen by him or by others on whom he dependd as somehow separate enough from the Church as to call it a distinct denomination.

If this happened, then there is either a problem with the fellow's scholarship in assembling the list or a problem in our understanding of how he defines 'denomination.'

The various rites within the Catholic Church are uniform regarding the unchanging truths of faith and morals. Where they differ are on matters of discipline which are subject to change and which can allow for legitimate diversity.

Now if there is a problem in the man's scholarship, then that could bring into doubt what he has to say about the number of divisions within Protestant Christianity. In saying this I am by no means denying that there is a great amount of division there. I am saying that it is not good to rely on faulty scholarship to support one's point (that is, if the man's scholarship is faulty).

Other groups that he lists as Catholic (Ecumenical, Evangelical, etc.) are most certainly not.

The way that we can determine this is to look at the historical development of each group that claims to be Catholic. After looking at the evidence, which has made the best case? The Catholic Church (with no modifiers) has ample historical evidence to show that has roots going back to the time of the apostles and our Lord himself.

On the other hand, those who identify themselves as, for example, 'Old Catholics' can only trace themselves back to a movement in opposition to the defining of papal infallibility at Vatican I.
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  #17  
Old Jun 26, '04, 12:12 pm
hawkeye hawkeye is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnznet
This drive me nuts!! There are not versions of the truth.

There is either the truth or a lie. Something is either true or not.


God have Mercy !

Peace in Jesus and Mary.
True, half the truth is still a whole lie I mean imagine telling the Priest half the truth, do we qualify that as a good confession ?
  #18  
Old Jun 26, '04, 2:35 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
I wonder if you feel like defending those numbers?
Part 1
Shibboleth, I love defending those numbers!

Barrett correctly lists 22 "ecclesiastical traditions" under Roman Catholic in 2001. [Svendsen's article quotes an earlier edition of Barrett's work.]

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ (Mt. 16:18) and came into being in Jerusalem when the promised Holy Spirit (Jn 14:15-18 et al.) arrived at Pentecost in 33 A.D. (Acts 2:1-4). From Jerusalem, the Church spread to five major cultural centers (in alphabetical order): Alexandria, Antioch, Armenia, Byzantium, and Rome. These were not separate churches -- divided by
doctrine as well as by distance -- but branches of the One True Church founded by Christ, established and personally taught by one or more of the Apostles. All held to the same doctrines and practices -- one Church with many branches.

These Churches expanded through the efforts of the Apostles' disciples, forming additional branches of the same Church, and teaching others the same Faith they had learned from their mentors, the Apostles. The expansion went on, and is still going on today. The headquarters -- and the final authority in matters of faith and morals -- was and is the Church of Rome, founded by Sts. Paul and Peter. St. Peter, appointed leader of His Church by Christ, was the first Bishop of Rome. Peter's successors (there have been 265 of them including JPII) guide the Universal Church.

Members of the Church were first called 'Christians' in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and sometimes 'Catholics' in or before 110 A.D., when Ignatius of Antioch wrote, "... where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." (Letter to the Smyrnaeans).

Some 50 years or so later, The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp refers to "the holy and Catholic Church in every place," and St. Polycarp is called "the bishop of the Catholic Church at Smyrna."

The Latin Rite (also known as the Roman Rite) became the dominant form of Catholic worship in Western Europe as Latin became the common language, replacing Greek. Different styles of liturgy developed in the East, reflecting differences in cultures and languages. In 1054, the East split from the West and called themselves "Orthodox." Some Eastern Churches later reunited with Rome and became known as Eastern Catholic
Churches -- as opposed to Eastern Orthodox. (The one exception is the Maronites, who never separated from Rome.) Every one of these Churches, or Rites, teaches the same doctrines and acknowledges the Pope -- the successor to Peter and the bishop of Rome -- as the head of the Catholic (Universal) Church and the supreme authority in matters of doctrine and morals. All these Rites, or Churches, hold to the same Faith (set of beliefs), just as St. Paul insisted: "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." And they are all centered on the Eucharist. The Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks for and applies to every one of them.

(Continued)
  #19  
Old Jun 26, '04, 2:39 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Part 2


A few of these 22 Rites, or Churches, are the Armenian, Maronite, Chaldean, Byzantine, Coptic, Malabar, Latin (aka Roman) and Syrian, for example. They are all Catholic and profess the same Faith as the Church of Rome.

All these Rites, or more properly Churches, offer the same sacrifice, preach the same doctrines, and celebrate the same seven Sacraments. Any Catholic may attend any of the 22 Rites he wishes. They are all the One Church founded by Christ.

The 22 autonomous ritual churches cannot be classified as denominations which, by definition, differ from one another on various points of Biblical interpretation, doctrine, or practice. Historically, they were part of the (R)CC for a thousand years, were separated for a time during the Great Schism, and have since come home to Mother Church.

This is a simplified history, but in a nutshell, that's the story of the Catholic Rites. So the Catholic Church is one organization consisting of (thus far) 22 autonomous ritual churches (including Rome). Together, the various Churches constitute one entity -- the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Rites differ in culture, language, liturgy, canon law, but not in doctrine, practice, or biblical interpretation. They all trace their beginning to an Apostle (not an ordinary man). They all hold to the ancient Faith as it was taught by the Apostles in all its fullness. Each is centered around the Eucharist.

There is no such unifying relationship among the Protestant denominations. Instead of forming a united whole, they are splintered. For example, the original church of Martin Luther does not exist and has been replaced by a plethora of "synods" who disagree with all other Lutheran synods in their interpretation of the Scriptures, doctrines, or religious practices. The
same lamentable story can be told of Calvin's church. And on and on goes the sad story of Protestantism.

The new trend is independent churches with no
affiliation whatsover with historic Christianity. But these churches are not Catholic, not Orthodox, and not Anglican; therefore, they are Protestant. They base their beliefs on the Bible and thus qualify as Protestants.


Ave Cor Mariae, Jay
  #20  
Old Jun 26, '04, 3:18 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia, A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World, defines "denomination" as: "Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries." (emphasis added)

Barrett defines "paradenomination" as: "A recent network of churches that is becoming a denomination but resisting denominationalist shortcomings." Most of us would call them just plain Protestants.

So, there are not exactly 33,820 denominations as a non-statistician would count them. All units of measurement are very carefully defined by Barrett in his work. But there are literally thousands of competing and conflicting Protestant denominations. A look at the Handbook of Denominations in the United States is ample proof of that! And all 211 Baptist denominations in the Baptist World Alliance aren't listed!

But I think the number of 33,820 has been reported by Newsweek and others, and the majority of folks quote the number from that magazine or a similar source. It is the number given by Barrett, but I repeat, he's a statistician and his definitions and breakdowns must be taken into account.

But Eric Svendsen's idea that all Protestants are accounted for under Barrett's category of "Evangelicals" is bull-oney.

Barrett is a renowned statistician who is also, as I stated previously, an Anglican clergyman. That, I think, accounts for 'Anglican' being listed separately and not under "Protestant." He probably subscribes to the three-branch theory of the "True Church" -- Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican.

JMJ Jay
  #21  
Old Jun 26, '04, 3:19 pm
bfdtex bfdtex is offline
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Unhappy Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholikos
Protestant apologist Eric Svendsen has taken exception to this statistical study, or rather to those who don't read it his way, and has concluded that are are actually only 8,196 Protestant denominations .
I laughed so hard, I inhaled a piece of bowtie pasta & choked till I turned all shades of purple. Go easy on those smilie faces, you could hurt someone. Peace. -Tex

Quote:
Into one hymn, yourselves unite, stars, earth and sea; and the Incomprehensible Devine Mercy, in concert praise, charmingly. Amen. -St. Faustina
  #22  
Old Jun 26, '04, 3:40 pm
Tyler Smedley Tyler Smedley is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

No matter how many protestant denominations there are, each one of them claim to be the Truth, and as we saw in the World Baptist whatever example not all of these denominations agree with eachother. The fact remains that only one Church was started by Jesus Christ, and has Christ show up every day in bodly form for our "services". That would be the Catholic Church!
  #23  
Old Jun 26, '04, 3:59 pm
hawkeye hawkeye is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtex
I laughed so hard, I inhaled a piece of bowtie pasta & choked till I turned all shades of purple. Go easy on those smilie faces, you could hurt someone. Peace. -Tex
Only 8,196 thats not many, us Catholics are totally out numbered
  #24  
Old Jun 26, '04, 4:47 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
One thing that is misunderstood by both sides is the assumption that “Sola Scriptura” means that all people with the Holy Spirit can interpret the Bible infallibly. Well this obviously is not true…
Shibboleth,

After this surprising admission, which is all too obviously true, tell us why all Protestant denominations claim that what they teach in each of their thousands of competing and conflicting doctrines is ABSOLUTE TRUTH? And why none of them says, 'Maybe we're right, maybe we're wrong, but come and worship with us just in case we've got it right. Nobody knows for sure who's right. We've all got our own interpretation. But ours is as good as any. And -- we've got a workout room.'

JMJ Jay
  #25  
Old Jun 26, '04, 5:15 pm
bbas 64 bbas 64 is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholikos
This is a spin-off from The Real Luther thread.

An article in the April 16, 2001 Newsweek magazine, that documents the rapid growth of separate, competing, and conflicting Protestant denominations in the world, reports the number of denominations as 33,820.

Newsweek's source for this number is the World Christian Encyclopedia by David Barrett (2001 edition), where it appears on page 10 of Volume 1. (In 1970, a similar statistical study by Barrett gave the number of denominations as 26,350.) The 2001 figure is broken down as 11,830 traditional denominations and 21,990 paradenominations. He divides Christianity into (Roman) Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant (Barrett is an Anglican clergyman). So if an organization does not belong in one of the first three categories, it's Protestant. Barrett has some statistical definitions and breakdowns which must be taken into account.

Protestant apologist Eric Svendsen has taken exception to this statistical study, or rather to those who don't read it his way, and has concluded that are are actually only 8,196 Protestant denominations . He criticizes Catholic apologists for using the larger number, though they most likely get it from publications like Newsweek. I doubt that every apologist has a copy of the statistical study, which costs a couple of hundred dollars or more.

I don't agree with Svendsen limited definition of "Protestant," but as I told him (in 2001?), 8,196 Protestant denominations are plenty, plenty to prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura.

JMJ Jay
Good Day, JMJ

If I recall did not Mr. Barrett say in this paper that there were a number of RC denominations, if we use his idea of what 1 is?

Peace to u,

Bill
  #26  
Old Jun 26, '04, 6:48 pm
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbas 64
Good Day, JMJ

If I recall did not Mr. Barrett say in this paper that there were a number of RC denominations, if we use his idea of what 1 is?

Peace to u,

Bill
Remember Barrett's definition of "denomination"? Here it is again: "Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries." (emphasis added)

In other words, the (Roman) Catholic Church has an active presence in all but two of the world's 238 countries. It is truly the Universal (Catholic) Church.

When you read that definition carefully, do you see the affirmation from Fr. Barrett (he's an Anglican priest) that the (Roman) Catholic Church is a single organization? Single = one.

The churches that use the name Catholic but are not under the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome are not "Catholic churches."

Examples posted:
Churches-Catholic-American (49) [not CC]
Churches-Catholic-Byzantine (48) [yes, prolly CC)
Churches-Catholic-Evangelical (4) [not CC]
Churches-Catholic-Mexican (12) [not CC]
Churches-Catholic-Old (6) [not CC]
Churches-Catholic-Roman (1962) [yes, CC]
Churches-Catholic-Traditional (66) [? prolly not CC]
Churches-Catholic, Church Of God (18) [not CC]
Churches-Catholic, Ecumenical (2) [not CC]
Churches-Catholic, Latin Rite (9) [? prolly not CC]
The two with question marks, I'd have to check out to be sure. But if they're not under the Pope, they're not part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Byzantine Churches are among the 22 autonomous ritual churches that together comprise the Catholic Church. If that's who is referred to here, and not some other denomination using that name, they are Catholic.


There are no "Catholic denominations" as we non-statistical types understand the term. The Catholic Church is the Nomination from which all denominations are ultimately derived. She alone is the Mother Church of Christendom.

BTW, Barrett's study isn't a paper -- it's a statistical study in two volumes, 10 X 12, approximately 850 pages per volume.

Oremus pro invicem, Jay

Last edited by Katholikos; Jun 26, '04 at 7:02 pm.
  #27  
Old Jun 27, '04, 2:18 am
Irish Melkite Irish Melkite is offline
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Post Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Katholikos,

You consistently refer to "22 autonomous ritual churches that together comprise the Catholic Church". There are actually 23 such Churches, the Latin (or Roman) Church and 22 Churches using the Eastern or Oriental Rites.

Many years,

Neil
  #28  
Old Jun 27, '04, 7:33 am
Shibboleth Shibboleth is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholikos
Shibboleth,

After this surprising admission, which is all too obviously true, tell us why all Protestant denominations claim that what they teach in each of their thousands of competing and conflicting doctrines is ABSOLUTE TRUTH? And why none of them says, 'Maybe we're right, maybe we're wrong, but come and worship with us just in case we've got it right. Nobody knows for sure who's right. We've all got our own interpretation. But ours is as good as any. And -- we've got a workout room.'

JMJ Jay
Well, the various denominations might not say it but this is exactly how I feel. Do I think that the Lutheran Church is 100% correct in all of their proclamations and interpretations? No, absolutely not… Nor do I think that any Church can make that bold of claim, but as I have said many times before this could very well be my problem and not the Churches.

Do I think that other Christian Faiths are equal… no, there are some that have went too far in certain directions by my estimation.

- Catholicism: Had their problems in the past but it is a noble Church that has made some tremendous reforms.
- Calvinist Churches: I have some disagreements with their view of salvation, but overall they are not doing so badly.
- Anabaptists: I would prefer to talk to them more about how I should frame my garage than on theological issues.
- Pentecostals: Holy smokes!!! What in the world?
- Fundamentalists: Thanks for sharing; I think I will go now.
- Methodists: Whatever…
- Karl Keating: Great Insightful leader
- Jimmy Akin: very intelligent man that I can learn a great deal from
- Srkbdk and Marie: have excellent posts and both make me want to be a better Christian
- Katholikos: anger leads to the dark side of the force, but I love him as a brother
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  #29  
Old Jun 27, '04, 10:36 am
Churchmouse Churchmouse is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholikos
I don't agree with Svendsen limited definition of "Protestant," but as I told him (in 2001?), 8,196 Protestant denominations are plenty, plenty to prove the fallacy of Sola Scriptura.
I was informed that the old NTRM forum format began in February, 2002 and the new format in November of the same year. Out of curiosity, do you have any of Eric's responses to your critique of his article?

Peace,
CM
  #30  
Old Jun 27, '04, 10:53 am
Katholikos Katholikos is offline
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Default Re: How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shibboleth
Well, the various denominations might not say it but this is exactly how I feel. Do I think that the Lutheran Church is 100% correct in all of their proclamations and interpretations? No, absolutely not… Nor do I think that any Church can make that bold of claim, but as I have said many times before this could very well be my problem and not the Churches.

Do I think that other Christian Faiths are equal… no, there are some that have went too far in certain directions by my estimation.

- Catholicism: Had their problems in the past but it is a noble Church that has made some tremendous reforms.
- Calvinist Churches: I have some disagreements with their view of salvation, but overall they are not doing so badly.
- Anabaptists: I would prefer to talk to them more about how I should frame my garage than on theological issues.
- Pentecostals: Holy smokes!!! What in the world?
- Fundamentalists: Thanks for sharing; I think I will go now.
- Methodists: Whatever…
In other words, there is no 'capital T' TRUTH in Christianity. Christianity is a guessing game. Christianity is a revealed religion, but there is no way to know what God revealed. The heavens opened and a collection of books fell out, in the red letter, leather-bound edition, and God said, "This is my Word -- and it's all you need to know for your salvation -- figure out what it means for yourself."


Quote:
- Karl Keating: Great Insightful leader
- Jimmy Akin: very intelligent man that I can learn a great deal from
- Srkbdk and Marie: have excellent posts and both make me want to be a better Christian
- Katholikos: anger leads to the dark side of the force, but I love him as a brother
I agree with your assessments of people -- except myself .
Amusing, but I am not at all angry. I tell it like it is. I'm very direct. I take the shortest distance between two points. But I am deliriously happy to have learned the truth. I once was blind, but now I see. My friends call me "Industrial-Strength Catholic."

Fortunately, not everyone finds me angry or dark. I've mentored two Protestant efriends I met at discussion forums into the Church -- one in Oregon two years ago (wife, husband, and two sons), one in London this year.

I suspect you didn't like what I had to say about "The Real Luther."

Peace be with you, Jay
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