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  #1  
Old Dec 12, '10, 6:54 pm
TBolt1000T TBolt1000T is offline
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Default Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

January 1 is the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God in the OF. I attend a parish that offers both the OF and EF. I've been told that a completely different solemnity, the Circumcision, is celebrated on January 1 in the EF.

My question is, if I only go to the EF that day, is my holy day obligation still fulfilled, even if a different solemnity is celebrated? Please forgive me if what I've been told about the Circumcision is wrong.
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  #2  
Old Dec 12, '10, 7:01 pm
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curlycool89 curlycool89 is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBolt1000T View Post
January 1 is the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God in the OF. I attend a parish that offers both the OF and EF. I've been told that a completely different solemnity, the Circumcision, is celebrated on January 1 in the EF.

My question is, if I only go to the EF that day, is my holy day obligation still fulfilled, even if a different solemnity is celebrated? Please forgive me if what I've been told about the Circumcision is wrong.
Yes. On any HDO, your are required to attend a Celebration, and that can mean the OF, EF, Anglican Use, or Divine Liturgy (or any other Catholic Liturgies I missed). It doesn't matter what is being celebrated in that calendar (technically, in the East it's still pre-Christmas due to the Julian Calendar so they'd still be in "Advent" if they have such an equivalent).

Although, just a heads up, January 1st is NOT a HDO in the United States this year due to it falling on a Saturday (see the USCCB website). It is still a HDO for us here in Canada though.
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  #3  
Old Dec 12, '10, 7:07 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
Yes. On any HDO, your are required to attend a Celebration, and that can mean the OF, EF, Anglican Use, or Divine Liturgy (or any other Catholic Liturgies I missed). It doesn't matter what is being celebrated in that calendar (technically, in the East it's still pre-Christmas due to the Julian Calendar so they'd still be in "Advent" if they have such an equivalent).

Although, just a heads up, January 1st is NOT a HDO in the United States this year due to it falling on a Saturday (see the USCCB website). It is still a HDO for us here in Canada though.
This is all completely true, but it bears pointing out also that Holy Days of Obligation are not defined by the calendar (go ahead and check, you won't see anything about obligations on the 1962 calendar) but by Canon Law (canon 1246) and the decrees of episcopal conferences promulgated thereunder which are approved by the Apostolic See. Therefore (contrary to what some pastors occasionally try to tell people) for purposes of the obligation it makes no difference whether you attend a "TLM parish" or an "NO parish," or which calendar you consider yourself as "observing," because we are all under the same canon law.
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Old Dec 12, '10, 7:36 pm
TBolt1000T TBolt1000T is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by MarkThompson View Post
This is all completely true, but it bears pointing out also that Holy Days of Obligation are not defined by the calendar (go ahead and check, you won't see anything about obligations on the 1962 calendar) but by Canon Law (canon 1246) and the decrees of episcopal conferences promulgated thereunder which are approved by the Apostolic See. Therefore (contrary to what some pastors occasionally try to tell people) for purposes of the obligation it makes no difference whether you attend a "TLM parish" or an "NO parish," or which calendar you consider yourself as "observing," because we are all under the same canon law.

Ok...You completely lost me there...
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  #5  
Old Dec 12, '10, 7:44 pm
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBolt1000T View Post
January 1 is the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God in the OF. I attend a parish that offers both the OF and EF. I've been told that a completely different solemnity, the Circumcision, is celebrated on January 1 in the EF.

My question is, if I only go to the EF that day, is my holy day obligation still fulfilled, even if a different solemnity is celebrated? Please forgive me if what I've been told about the Circumcision is wrong.
It's the same rule as for Sundays - you have to go to Mass, but as long as the parish and the priest are in good standing with the Church, it doesn't matter what Liturgy they happen to be using. Feel free to go to the EF, same as you would on a Sunday.
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  #6  
Old Dec 12, '10, 8:10 pm
TBolt1000T TBolt1000T is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
Although, just a heads up, January 1st is NOT a HDO in the United States this year due to it falling on a Saturday (see the USCCB website). It is still a HDO for us here in Canada though.

Thanks for the heads up. I thought that it was an HDO here as well, since like Immaculate Conception, it is a Marian feast. Immaculate Conception is always an HDO here in the US, whether it falls on the day before, or the day after a Sunday, or not, because of Mary being our patroness.
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  #7  
Old Dec 12, '10, 8:31 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by TBolt1000T View Post
Ok...You completely lost me there...
My point is that holy days of obligation do not depend on whether you follow the modern calendar or the 1962 calendar. There is no such thing as a day which is not obligatory at a parish that follows the modern calendar, but is obligatory at the TLM parish down the street.

Why is that, since it's permitted for people to follow the old calendar if they choose? Because obligations do not come from the calendar itself. The calendar defines which feasts fall on which days, but the obligation to go to some of those feasts comes from canon law, and canon law is the same for everyone regardless of which form of the rite your attend. (Like I said: go ahead and check the calendar in the 1962 Missale; you'll see that it doesn't say anything about obligations.)

So it is not correct to reason, as some people do, "If Saint X's Day was a holy day of obligation in 1962, then it is a holy day of obligation at my TLM parish, since we follow the 1962 calendar." The obligation to go to Mass for certain feasts has nothing to do with the calendar. The feasts which require obligatory attendance are stated by canon law (and can be modified, with the Vatican's approval, by the conference of bishops), and using the old calendar does not make any feast obligatory that would not be for someone using the new calendar.

To put it differently, a person would also be mistaken to think, "I have to obey more days of obligation than my friends who go to the Novus Ordo, because I belong to a TLM parish." The days of obligation are the same for everyone, because they come from canon law, not from the form of the rite or the calendar that you follow.

I hope I've put that in a way that makes sense now. Every time a day comes up that is no longer obligatory but used to be (or where, like January 1 or All Souls, the obligation is dispensed when it falls on Saturday or Monday), someone pops up to announce that, no matter what other people are doing, they are obligated to go to Mass anyway because they follow the old calendar -- and, maybe, their TLM priest even announced last week that the obligation is still binding. This is completely false, but it causes a fair amount of confusion.

Needless to say, it is very commendable to go to Mass anyway!
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  #8  
Old Dec 12, '10, 8:49 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
Yes. On any HDO, your are required to attend a Celebration, and that can mean the OF, EF, Anglican Use, or Divine Liturgy (or any other Catholic Liturgies I missed). It doesn't matter what is being celebrated in that calendar (technically, in the East it's still pre-Christmas due to the Julian Calendar so they'd still be in "Advent" if they have such an equivalent).

Although, just a heads up, January 1st is NOT a HDO in the United States this year due to it falling on a Saturday (see the USCCB website). It is still a HDO for us here in Canada though.
Most Eastern Calendars I believe are either in the Gregorian or revised Julian, which means they would have celebrated Christmas on the 25th of December. At least for Eastern Catholics.
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Old Dec 12, '10, 8:49 pm
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by TBolt1000T View Post
Thanks for the heads up. I thought that it was an HDO here as well, since like Immaculate Conception, it is a Marian feast. Immaculate Conception is always an HDO here in the US, whether it falls on the day before, or the day after a Sunday, or not, because of Mary being our patroness.
Mary is the patroness of the United States of America under her title of the Immaculate Conception. That is why that solemnity is always a Holy Day of Obligation. Other Marian feasts are not patronal feasts.
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Old Dec 12, '10, 9:34 pm
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curlycool89 curlycool89 is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by MarkThompson View Post
This is all completely true, but it bears pointing out also that Holy Days of Obligation are not defined by the calendar (go ahead and check, you won't see anything about obligations on the 1962 calendar) but by Canon Law (canon 1246) and the decrees of episcopal conferences promulgated thereunder which are approved by the Apostolic See. Therefore (contrary to what some pastors occasionally try to tell people) for purposes of the obligation it makes no difference whether you attend a "TLM parish" or an "NO parish," or which calendar you consider yourself as "observing," because we are all under the same canon law.
Yes, important distinction. Canon Law says a certain feast and Episcopal Conferences decide which are obligations (although, as far as I know the Conferences always follow the NO calendar, with exceptions for those that are transferred such as Corpus Christi).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Most Eastern Calendars I believe are either in the Gregorian or revised Julian, which means they would have celebrated Christmas on the 25th of December. At least for Eastern Catholics.
True. I know that I saw the Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral in my hometown had DL's scheduled for both Christmas (December 25th) and for Ukrainian Christmas (that's what we usually call it anyways).
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  #11  
Old Dec 12, '10, 9:56 pm
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corsair corsair is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

Mark,
Just a point here; I'm looking at a church calender for January 1, 2011 (its a TLM parish) and it is marked "Holy Day of Obligation". Granted it is a Saturday, but I can guarantee you that our TLM parish will have Mass at least twice on that day.
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Old Dec 12, '10, 10:18 pm
MarkThompson MarkThompson is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Mark,
Just a point here; I'm looking at a church calender for January 1, 2011 (its a TLM parish) and it is marked "Holy Day of Obligation". Granted it is a Saturday, but I can guarantee you that our TLM parish will have Mass at least twice on that day.
You mean a privately-produced, informal calendar, surely? I'm talking about the calendar, i.e. the Calendarium. See? The permission is to use the 1962 Missal, along with its calendar and liturgical norms. But the definition of which days are obligatory is not in the missal, the calendar, or the liturgical norms, it's in canon law, and there is, obviously, no permission to resurrect portions of the pre-1983 Code piecemeal.

And parishes do not have the authority to mandate or abolish obligatory attendance. I realize that many people wish that more days were obligatory (I think it would be a good idea for the life of the church), but no person (or pastor) can say, "For me (or my congregation), I'm going to deem this day to be obligatory."
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  #13  
Old Dec 12, '10, 11:29 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

I think in Canada its still an obligation. My RC parish has it scheduled as usual with vigil Masses. Usually for my family we see January 1st as a thanksgiving Mass for the past year, and prayers for the coming. Its not such a bad idea to go to Mass of this purpose even though the obligation is not there.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 3:38 am
Phemie Phemie is online now
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
I think in Canada its still an obligation. My RC parish has it scheduled as usual with vigil Masses. Usually for my family we see January 1st as a thanksgiving Mass for the past year, and prayers for the coming. Its not such a bad idea to go to Mass of this purpose even though the obligation is not there.
Yes, it's a HDO in Canada. I guess I think of January 1 the same way you do, since it was not always a Marian feast.

I remember that when I was a child we always went to Mass on that day and one of the hymns sung in my French parish was asking God to bless the new year.

Mon Dieu, bénissez la nouvelle année.

The refrain literally translates to

My God, bless the new year
Make happy our relatives and friends
It is all Yours and is given to us
To earn Paradise.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 6:16 am
TBolt1000T TBolt1000T is offline
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Default Re: Holy day of obligation question - January 1, 2011

Thanks for explaining that, Mark. One question I still have, though, what if a particular HDO is not a solemnity in the TLM? Could a TLM only parish decide not to have Mass on that day because of this? Would the members of that parish be forced to go to a Novus Ordo parish instead? Since I go to a parish that offers both forms of the Mass, this is just a question out of curiosity. I don't have a strong prefference for either form of the Mass like some people do, but what about those of us who do?
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