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  #1  
Old Dec 13, '10, 8:17 am
CSUNGerrie CSUNGerrie is offline
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Default Eating meat a mortal sin?

I am sure this has been asked a billion times but I wasnt able to find the threat after searching.

Anyway, I know this cafeteria catholic who is saying that in some early Catechism it states that eating meat on friday is a mortal sin. Is this true?

If it is not true (which I expect it isnt) what part of the catechism does he think says this?
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  #2  
Old Dec 13, '10, 8:42 am
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I found these 2 links up in the Ask An Apologist forum and they look very good.
You might also point him to the following from the Baltimore Catechism
Quote:
Q. 285. What are sins committed without reflection or consent called?
A. Sins committed without reflection or consent are called material sins; that is, they would be formal or real sins if we knew their sinfulness at the time we committed them. Thus to eat flesh meat on a day of abstinence without knowing it to be a day of abstinence or without thinking of the prohibition, would be a material sin.
Q. 286. Do past material sins become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness?
A. Past material sins do not become real sins as soon as we discover their sinfulness, unless we again repeat them with full knowledge and consent.
BTW, remind him that the first condition for mortal sin is that it be a grave matter and you' actually have to work at it or that to happen in this case but then it become a matter of intention.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 9:10 am
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Paul VI notes "Their substantial observance binds gravely"...

(so a "substantial" break...is grave matter...which seems from at least some good sources not to mean a single instance...)

(and in the US one is not obliged on Fridays outside lent or Good Friday to abstain from meat)
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Old Dec 13, '10, 9:57 am
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSUNGerrie View Post
I am sure this has been asked a billion times but I wasnt able to find the threat after searching.

Anyway, I know this cafeteria catholic who is saying that in some early Catechism it states that eating meat on friday is a mortal sin. Is this true?

If it is not true (which I expect it isnt) what part of the catechism does he think says this?
Pope Paul VI did away with the requirement of abstaining from meat on non-Lenten Fridays (It is still required during Lent). In place of abstaining from meat on non-Lenten Fridays, we as Catholics have been asked by Pope Paul VI to replace abstinence by some other sacrifice of their own choosing. The problem arises that many within the Church forget this part of the "compromise" and often no form of sacrifice is offered up. Traditionally, we Catholics, view this sacrifice as a obligation toward penance in remembrance that our Lord sacrificed Himself on Friday and in some small way we wish to offer up a sacrifice, in the form of penance, with and to Him. Some Catholics, such as myself, find it easier to continue to abstain from meat rather than find an alternative. Others, have chosen things like serving the poor in some way, visiting the ill, or giving something up that they enjoy each Friday.

I believe that prior to Pope Paul VI's decision to change the requirement and as to the degree of sin which comes into play (mortal sin vs. venial sin) it is not so much in the actual eating of meat; rather, it's in the disobedience of those Catholics who willingly/knowing decided to partake of meat on Fridays prior to Vatican II. The Church required Catholics prior to Vatican II to abstain and as we see today in other areas (attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, etc), some Catholics refuse. Therein lies the mortal sin... disobediance to the Church's authority.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 10:28 am
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

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Originally Posted by Tietjen View Post
Pope Paul VI did away with the requirement of abstaining from meat on non-Lenten Fridays (It is still required during Lent).
This is not quite the case. Universally the abstainence from meat is retained by Paul VI and Canon Law. But conferences of Bishops are permitted to adjust things for their area of the world..which has happened in many places in regards to the meat outside of Lent.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 10:56 am
CSUNGerrie CSUNGerrie is offline
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Thanks for all the replies. I am still a bit confused. Was it a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays outside of lent during some time in Church history? And did the Cathechism teach this?
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Old Dec 13, '10, 11:22 am
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

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Originally Posted by CSUNGerrie View Post
Thanks for all the replies. I am still a bit confused. Was it a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays outside of lent during some time in Church history? And did the Cathechism teach this?
Yes I believe it was in the past grave matter (one needs full knowledge and complete consent or course..not some accident) (thus would be a mortal sin) to at least some extent. To disobey the laws of abstinence ....at least in a grave sense...would be grave matter for mortal sin. http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-35.htm (Local US old Balt. Cat)

As to now...it still binds gravely "substantually" ...in the US on the Fridays of Lent and Good Friday ...(ash wed) see Pope Paul VI doc Pentaminii (mispelled).

Not sure to what extent it was binding in the past....(ie if one had to break it substantually..) it may have been different than it is today..
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Old Dec 13, '10, 11:30 am
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietjen View Post
Pope Paul VI did away with the requirement of abstaining from meat on non-Lenten Fridays (It is still required during Lent). In place of abstaining from meat on non-Lenten Fridays, we as Catholics have been asked by Pope Paul VI to replace abstinence by some other sacrifice of their own choosing. The problem arises that many within the Church forget this part of the "compromise" and often no form of sacrifice is offered up. Traditionally, we Catholics, view this sacrifice as a obligation toward penance in remembrance that our Lord sacrificed Himself on Friday and in some small way we wish to offer up a sacrifice, in the form of penance, with and to Him. Some Catholics, such as myself, find it easier to continue to abstain from meat rather than find an alternative. Others, have chosen things like serving the poor in some way, visiting the ill, or giving something up that they enjoy each Friday.

I believe that prior to Pope Paul VI's decision to change the requirement and as to the degree of sin which comes into play (mortal sin vs. venial sin) it is not so much in the actual eating of meat; rather, it's in the disobedience of those Catholics who willingly/knowing decided to partake of meat on Fridays prior to Vatican II. The Church required Catholics prior to Vatican II to abstain and as we see today in other areas (attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, etc), some Catholics refuse. Therein lies the mortal sin... disobediance to the Church's authority.
This. ^
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Old Dec 13, '10, 11:40 am
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Just checked an old Moral Theology Manual from the period...it says that they did bind gravely (for mortal sin)...but that slight violations were venial sins.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 12:05 pm
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

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Originally Posted by CSUNGerrie View Post
Thanks for all the replies. I am still a bit confused. Was it a mortal sin to eat meat on Fridays outside of lent during some time in Church history? And did the Cathechism teach this?
The sin was in being disobedient to the legitimate authority of the Church.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 12:18 pm
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

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Originally Posted by Tietjen View Post
Therein lies the mortal sin... disobediance to the Church's authority.
Yup that is the key to understanding this from an "outsiders" perspective.
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Old Dec 13, '10, 2:51 pm
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSUNGerrie View Post
Anyway, I know this cafeteria catholic who is saying that in some early Catechism it states that eating meat on friday is a mortal sin. Is this true?

If it is not true (which I expect it isnt) what part of the catechism does he think says this?
The act of eating meat is not intrinsically evil, however, it is not the act of eating meat that caused the grave sin but the act of, willfully ignoring and disobeying the authority of the Church to "bind and loose". In other words if your mother tells you not to eat a cookie, and you dis obey her, the sin is not on the eating act but in your disobedience.

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Old Dec 14, '10, 5:35 pm
CSUNGerrie CSUNGerrie is offline
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Interesting. Thank you all for your replies. However, now I am confused about something else. If this was something that was taught in the Cathechism at one point, then why is it no longer required? It makes the church look like it contradicts itself in teaching that one should not eat meat on Fridays and then teaching that it is ok outside of non lenten Fridays.

I feel like it opens up the possibility in others mind that the church will change its position on X or Y or Z.. afterall, they did it on this meat eating requirement.

Please help me understand how this does not contradict the church's teaching authority. How can something be good for one generation but not for another?
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Old Dec 14, '10, 5:45 pm
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSUNGerrie View Post
Interesting. Thank you all for your replies. However, now I am confused about something else. If this was something that was taught in the Cathechism at one point, then why is it no longer required? It makes the church look like it contradicts itself in teaching that one should not eat meat on Fridays and then teaching that it is ok outside of non lenten Fridays.

I feel like it opens up the possibility in others mind that the church will change its position on X or Y or Z.. afterall, they did it on this meat eating requirement.

Please help me understand how this does not contradict the church's teaching authority. How can something be good for one generation but not for another?
Disciplines can change.

Originally, giving up meat was a real sacrifice for most people. Often it meant people had very little to eat.

But in modern times, not only is meat easily found and (relatively) affordable, many more people are 'vegetarian' and don't eat meat at all --so giving up meat on a Friday is not a sacrifice for THEM. And many people LIKE fish (not me, bleah) so having fish on Friday is not a sacrifice for THEM.

And so the US bishops have allowed (in the U.S.) that instead of the UNIVERSAL NORM (that means that outside the U.S., the NORM, unless other countries likewise petition for an indult) of no meat on ANY FRIDAY, that in the U.S. since 1966 Catholics OUTSIDE LENT FRIDAYS may CHOOSE A PENANCE. They are encouraged to choose something MEANINGFUL.

Lots of us keep to the Friday abstinence (especially if, like me, you really like meat and really don't care much for fish or eggs or the standard 'vegetarian' fare, so it really is a sacrifice!) but plenty of people choose other penances.

Really it is because what was a sacrifice for most people at one time is no longer a sacrifice for many.
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  #15  
Old Dec 14, '10, 6:27 pm
CSUNGerrie CSUNGerrie is offline
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Default Re: Eating meat a mortal sin?

Oh I see. So your saying the act of offering up a sacrifice hasnt changed even though the specific sacrifice has. This makes a lot of sense. Thank you Tantum!
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