overcoming ethnicity in Eastern Catholic parishes

[GraceSofia]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I know of Latin Rite churches in the Chicago area who frown on any English spoken there. Perfectly legitimate.

Since Chicago is still part of the USA, I don't think it is legitimate at all to "frown on any English spoken."

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by GraceSofia

Since Chicago is still part of the USA, I don't think it is legitimate at all to "frown on any English spoken."

I disagree. What's that little bit about separation of church and state, inter alia?

Besides, the English grammar police have all but disappeared. It's only a matter of time before the language deteriorates into a barely recognizeable form.

[JharekCarnelian]

Originally Posted by GraceSofia

Since Chicago is still part of the USA, I don't think it is legitimate at all to "frown on any English spoken."

Grace, you should remember the United States has no official language. English is obviously de facto that language but it has no official status as such. There are Catholic Churches nearby to me here in the UK which offer the mass or divine liturgy in Spanish, Polish, Ukrainian, Arabic etc. etc. I wouldn't say they'd from on you for speaking English in some but it wouldn't be the norm and that I find to be no big deal as the Church is universal but universal does not need to mean homogenous.

[Cecilianus]

In most of the Ruthenian parishes I've been to it was the converts and transfers who were trying the hardest to preserve "ethnic" Eastern customs like Slavonic and even modern Ukrainian during the Liturgy. The Ruthenians have a very strong missionary spirit; they understand that people become Byzantine for religious reasons rather than simply viewing themselves as ethnic parishes.

In the Ukrainian parishes I've seen, people assumed that if you went there you either must be Ukrainian or a curious Latin. Nobody seems to understand that I legitimately view myself as a Greek Catholic and have requested a canonical transfer to have the bishops recognize this as well. I don't necessarily feel out of place in Ukrainian churches even though I don't speak a word of Ukrainian and there isn't a word of English in the Liturgy, but I feel some days like I'm deceiving people by pretending to be Ukrainian.

I feel the most out of place in Latin churches, and the worst ones are not the parishes that know they're ethnic (Hispanic, Filipino, and Vietnamese parishes) but the ones that think they aren't. It's the ordinary white Caucasian "American" parishes where the reigning assumption is that if you're Catholic then you're either German or Irish, and you're supposed to have warm fuzzy feelings during Oktoberfest and St. Paddy's Day. I'm Swedish-Minnesotan, grew up Swedish Lutheran (Augustana Synod - and please don't mention the fact that the American monstrosity that calls itself the ELCA swallowed it up!), and I'm really not ethnically Catholic (except for the Sicilian on my mother's side - but I wasn't raised as such). I chose the Byzantine rite for religious reasons - and since no matter which rite I take, I'm immersing myself into a foreign ethnicity, I'm more than happy to be "adopted" into the Slavic culture.

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by Cecilianus

I don't necessarily feel out of place in Ukrainian churches even though I don't speak a word of Ukrainian and there isn't a word of English in the Liturgy, but I feel some days like I'm deceiving people by pretending to be Ukrainian.

You may think it's deceiving but I find that very commendable. No one was born knowing Ukranian (or whatever liturgical language) and unless you get the necessary exposure, you're never going to speak or understand it. At the very least make the responses.

[ConstantineTG]

Originally Posted by Cecilianus

In most of the Ruthenian parishes I've been to it was the converts and transfers who were trying the hardest to preserve "ethnic" Eastern customs like Slavonic and even modern Ukrainian during the Liturgy. The Ruthenians have a very strong missionary spirit; they understand that people become Byzantine for religious reasons rather than simply viewing themselves as ethnic parishes.

In the Ukrainian parishes I've seen, people assumed that if you went there you either must be Ukrainian or a curious Latin. Nobody seems to understand that I legitimately view myself as a Greek Catholic and have requested a canonical transfer to have the bishops recognize this as well. I don't necessarily feel out of place in Ukrainian churches even though I don't speak a word of Ukrainian and there isn't a word of English in the Liturgy, but I feel some days like I'm deceiving people by pretending to be Ukrainian.

I feel the most out of place in Latin churches, and the worst ones are not the parishes that know they're ethnic (Hispanic, Filipino, and Vietnamese parishes) but the ones that think they aren't. It's the ordinary white Caucasian "American" parishes where the reigning assumption is that if you're Catholic then you're either German or Irish, and you're supposed to have warm fuzzy feelings during Oktoberfest and St. Paddy's Day. I'm Swedish-Minnesotan, grew up Swedish Lutheran (Augustana Synod - and please don't mention the fact that the American monstrosity that calls itself the ELCA swallowed it up!), and I'm really not ethnically Catholic (except for the Sicilian on my mother's side - but I wasn't raised as such). I chose the Byzantine rite for religious reasons - and since no matter which rite I take, I'm immersing myself into a foreign ethnicity, I'm more than happy to be "adopted" into the Slavic culture.

Thanks for sharing! I think one of the challenges I have is that I grew up in a country thats predominantly Roman Catholic. Oftentimes you cannot tell where our cultural practice ends and our religious practice begins. And its the same way with a lot of Eastern Churches where the ethnicity is tied to the religious aspect and tradition. So now I have many cultural traditions which are religiously rooted, but completely different from the cultural traditions that are also religiously rooted with the Ukrainians. I guess thats how it is different for me given that there is something Filipino for me to do when its Christmas or Lent, and this is what I am trying to overcome. Do I completely let go of my cultural religious heritage and embrace a new one? Or find something in between?

[Cecilianus]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

You may think it's deceiving but I find that very commendable. No one was born knowing Ukranian (or whatever liturgical language) and unless you get the necessary exposure, you're never going to speak or understand it. At the very least make the responses.

The responses aren't that tough - "Gospodi pomilui" and "Slava Isusu Christu" pretty easy to learn! - but even then the choir takes care of that for us.

[ConstantineTG]

Originally Posted by Cecilianus

The responses aren't that tough - "Gospodi pomilui" and "Slava Isusu Christu" pretty easy to learn! - but even then the choir takes care of that for us.

Gospodi? Isn't it Hospodi?

Or is Gospodi Slavonic?

[Cecilianus]

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Gospodi? Isn't it Hospodi?

Or is Gospodi Slavonic?

In Slavonic it's either Hospodi or Gospodi depending on whether it's spoken by a Ukrainian/Ruthenian or Russian, respectively. At my Ukrainian church they pronounce it closer to the Russian way - East Ukrainians, I guess.

[jimmy]

Originally Posted by malphono

Personally, I don't see it that way at all. Never have. I have to agree with the following on that point:

My point isn't that the eastern churches are unwelcoming of outsiders. In fact I think the eastern churches (especially the Maronites) are far more hospitable and warm than the western churches. They like to see visitors. The problem is a cultural barrier. Americans who were born here in America and have always lived in the American culture will very rarely join a church that follows an Arabic or other culture, especially if their ancestors aren't from that culture.

[5Loaves]

Originally Posted by Cecilianus

The responses aren't that tough - "Gospodi pomilui" and "Slava Isusu Christu" pretty easy to learn!

Agreed.
I think we have one Ukrainian (90 years young), one Ruthenian, and the rest are a mix of modern day San Francisco. So we are not ethnically Russian but we are Russian by our parish heritage and we very much hold to that. We just had a two part series during agape about our history in Russia, and the path out of Russia and our earliest years in SF.

I think everyone knows these OCS responses and most know several more which others have mentioned as typical to hear in the language of the Church in the homeland. Of course we all know Kýrie, eléison but I have also learned a number of other "Greek" responses since the local Greek Orthodox protocathedral does their feast day liturgies (to a nearly empty house) all in Greek. I haven't a clue what exactly is being said at most moments but I know the liturgy so I'm a happy camper just being there. (BTW it doesn't seem to worry them that the place is nearly empty at those services... maybe they should change to English and hold the service at night to accommodate their Americanized faithful...no way! )

There's never any telling when the curtain is pulled aside whether Father will boldly begin in OCS, or English, and the occasional Arabic from his Melkite days. Personally, I'm always happiest when it's OCS. I only know what he is saying at that point because I know the DL. We never get a lot of OCS but we do get sections of it and any major feast will begin in OCS and have plenty of it. Many of the parish (remember we're really tiny) know festal greetings in OCS and Arabic, since Father uses all three languages for those greetings. At Pascha we have greetings in many other languages of course. Our oldest choir member (a Christian Brother) who has been in the parish since its inception 50+ years ago will chant the hours in OCS. The rest of us are mostly limited there to the "Gospodi pomilui"s.

On Feast Days like the recent Nativity Holy Supper, our agape meal together is then guaranteed to have pirogi, mushroom soup, beets, etc. Truth be told there isn't a middle easterner among us but we also have a heavy portion of middle eastern food. S'prazdnikom!

[Cecilianus]

Originally Posted by 5Loaves

Agreed.
I think we have one Ukrainian (90 years young), one Ruthenian, and the rest are a mix of modern day San Francisco. So we are not ethnically Russian but we are Russian by our parish heritage and we very much hold to that. We just had a two part series during agape about our history in Russia, and the path out of Russia and our earliest years in SF.

I think everyone knows these OCS responses and most know several more which others have mentioned as typical to hear in the language of the Church in the homeland. Of course we all know Kýrie, eléison but I have also learned a number of other "Greek" responses since the local Greek Orthodox protocathedral does their feast day liturgies (to a nearly empty house) all in Greek. I haven't a clue what exactly is being said at most moments but I know the liturgy so I'm a happy camper just being there. (BTW it doesn't seem to worry them that the place is nearly empty at those services... maybe they should change to English and hold the service at night to accommodate their Americanized faithful...no way! )

There's never any telling when the curtain is pulled aside whether Father will boldly begin in OCS, or English, and the occasional Arabic from his Melkite days. Personally, I'm always happiest when it's OCS. I only know what he is saying at that point because I know the DL. We never get a lot of OCS but we do get sections of it and any major feast will begin in OCS and have plenty of it. Many of the parish (remember we're really tiny) know festal greetings in OCS and Arabic, since Father uses all three languages for those greetings. At Pascha we have greetings in many other languages of course. Our oldest choir member (a Christian Brother) who has been in the parish since its inception 50+ years ago will chant the hours in OCS. The rest of us are mostly limited there to the "Gospodi pomilui"s.

On Feast Days like the recent Nativity Holy Supper, our agape meal together is then guaranteed to have pirogi, mushroom soup, beets, etc. Truth be told there isn't a middle easterner among us but we also have a heavy portion of middle eastern food. S'prazdnikom!

Our Lady of Fatima is the name of your church, or is there another one in California? If I am ever lucky enough to get out there I want to come visit.

[porthos11]

Originally Posted by cecilianus

the responses aren't that tough - "gospodi pomilui" and "slava isusu christu" pretty easy to learn! - but even then the choir takes care of that for us.

slava naviki!!!

[5Loaves]

Originally Posted by Cecilianus

Our Lady of Fatima is the name of your church, or is there another one in California? If I am ever lucky enough to get out there I want to come visit.

We're a very lovely little village. We get a surprising number of visitors. PM me if you have a date for coming. We are the only Russian EC in CA, in a sea of Russian Orthodox, a quite lovely sea it is.

[GraceSofia]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

I disagree. What's that little bit about separation of church and state, inter alia?

Originally Posted by GraceSofia
Since Chicago is still part of the USA, I don't think it is legitimate at all to "frown on any English spoken."
JharekCarnelian:
Grace, you should remember the United States has no official language. English is obviously de facto that language but it has no official status as such. There are Catholic Churches nearby to me here in the UK which offer the mass or divine liturgy in Spanish, Polish, Ukrainian, Arabic etc. etc. I wouldn't say they'd from on you for speaking English in some but it wouldn't be the norm and that I find to be no big deal as the Church is universal but universal does not need to mean homogenous.
Yesterday 7:59 pm

It's not a matter of laws and the state. It is a matter of the country being an English-speaking country. If English is "frowned upon" anywhere in the country that is wrong IMO, for political and social reasons, but that is not the topic of this thread.

To address the topic of this thread, the Catholic Church is the universal church, it is not a bunch of ethnic social clubs. (Nothing wrong with an ethnic parish having purely social functions, but that is different). Nobody, no language, should be frowned upon. Everybody should be welcomed, and the business of helping each other get to heaven should take priority.