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  #1  
Old Dec 29, '10, 8:53 am
justme justme is offline
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Question Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

I need some help.

I believe all that the Church Teaches. I realize that when I have a "disagreement" with something the Church Teaches it is usually a misunderstanding on my part.

I have trouble with the Immaculate Conception and the sinless Mary. I believe in them as the Church Teaches but I am having trouble understanding them.

How can Mary be like us when she was sinless? Does not the Immaculate Conception make Mary different than us? How can I "go to" Mary when she is so different than us?

Can anyone help me on this? Is there something I should read that might help?

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old Dec 29, '10, 9:03 am
Robert Burns Robert Burns is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Here is a suggestion

Read the Encyclical where it was defined from the Chair of St Peter by Pope Pius the IX

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

If you have further questions after reading that encyclical - then we are here.

Pax
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  #3  
Old Dec 29, '10, 9:44 am
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Mark77 Mark77 is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

From the CA Library / Faith Tracts; "Immaculate Conception and Assumption"

"Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way:".....

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!"

Search the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) here; http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

http://www.catholic.com/library/Imma..._and_Assum.asp


Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
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"For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths." (CCC 1776).
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  #4  
Old Dec 29, '10, 10:14 am
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Adam and Eve were also created sinless in relationship with God. As they showed, human sinlessness is a spiritual gift that takes both a conscience and a constant effort to preserve in its original state.

The Holy Spirit created a baby with this one young woman, and through the intercession of God and that Baby, the Holy Spirit dwells within each of us.

In addition, Mary had the physical and spiritual influence of her Son, to shield and protect her from the Evil that was thrown against them both.
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  #5  
Old Dec 29, '10, 12:33 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
How can Mary be like us when she was sinless? Does not the Immaculate Conception make Mary different than us? How can I "go to" Mary when she is so different than us?

Is there something I should read that might help?
Might want to read "Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God" by Scott Hahn.


-Tim-
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  #6  
Old Dec 29, '10, 12:59 pm
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InspiritCarol InspiritCarol is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

This site has the best information on Mary I have ever seen with wisdom both from scripture and from the early Fathers.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/ble...rgin_mary.html

Also this short video called "The Truth About Mary in Scripture" very neatly connects the dots as to how it is only natural to conclude that Mary is concieved w/o sin. Even without Church Tradition and authority in the matter (not that that's a small thing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Peace and blessings.
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  #7  
Old Dec 29, '10, 1:11 pm
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InspiritCarol InspiritCarol is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

I'm sorry, I just reread your post and missed the key point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
How can Mary be like us when she was sinless? Does not the Immaculate Conception make Mary different than us? How can I "go to" Mary when she is so different than us?
Well now. Maybe it would help to look at in the light that not one of us is "like" any other one of us. Nevertheless we still manage to find common ground with each other on some level.

Mary was the "new Eve" but like Eve, she could have chosen to say "no" to God. She had/has that free will just like all of us, more; what separates her from us is that unlike us poor sinners, she CHOSE to always do God's will, not her own. Still, this doesn't distance her from us, more it places her in a perfect position to give us a hand when we falter. One does not have to DO a thing to understand it. Mary understands our problems and loves us and most of all wants to help us be as close to her son as possible.

When I want directions on how to get to a destination, I don't ask someone who is as lost as I am, I ask someone who knows how to get there and has already arrived.
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Crux sacra sit mihi lux! Nunquam draco sit mihi dux!
(May the holy cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide!)
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  #8  
Old Dec 29, '10, 3:43 pm
laszlo laszlo is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

The answer is that the sin is not essential part of being human, 0otherwise neither Jesus would be considered human being. The sin is defect, deficiency. Mary is the seem as Adam and Eve were before the sin, w/o concupiscence.
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  #9  
Old Dec 29, '10, 11:51 pm
Vince1022 Vince1022 is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
I need some help.

I believe all that the Church Teaches. I realize that when I have a "disagreement" with something the Church Teaches it is usually a misunderstanding on my part.

I have trouble with the Immaculate Conception and the sinless Mary. I believe in them as the Church Teaches but I am having trouble understanding them.

How can Mary be like us when she was sinless? Does not the Immaculate Conception make Mary different than us? How can I "go to" Mary when she is so different than us?

Can anyone help me on this? Is there something I should read that might help?

Thanks!
Mary is like us because she is completely and only human.

God's grace acted to preserve her from sin.
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  #10  
Old Dec 30, '10, 12:52 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

A lot of Catholics (particularly from the Latin Church) often respond to such a question by stating that God preserved her from sin. That is an incomplete answer.

Barbkw and Inspiritcarol gave the best answers. Mary is like any of us because she had to cooperate with the Grace of God to remain sinless. She went through the same struggles as any of us (just as Jesus did). The Grace she received at her Immaculate Conception is the same Grace we receive at Baptism. As you know, Baptism does not make us not able to sin - what it does (among other things) is provide us with the Grace of God to help us overcome sin. It's the same with Mary, the only difference being that she received her Grace at the first moment of her existence, whereas we receive ours at Baptism. Thus, you can be sure that she relates to us humans.

Blessings,
Marduk

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
I need some help.

I believe all that the Church Teaches. I realize that when I have a "disagreement" with something the Church Teaches it is usually a misunderstanding on my part.

I have trouble with the Immaculate Conception and the sinless Mary. I believe in them as the Church Teaches but I am having trouble understanding them.

How can Mary be like us when she was sinless? Does not the Immaculate Conception make Mary different than us? How can I "go to" Mary when she is so different than us?

Can anyone help me on this? Is there something I should read that might help?

Thanks!
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  #11  
Old Dec 30, '10, 7:46 am
justme justme is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
A lot of Catholics (particularly from the Latin Church) often respond to such a question by stating that God preserved her from sin. That is an incomplete answer.

Barbkw and Inspiritcarol gave the best answers. Mary is like any of us because she had to cooperate with the Grace of God to remain sinless. She went through the same struggles as any of us (just as Jesus did). The Grace she received at her Immaculate Conception is the same Grace we receive at Baptism. As you know, Baptism does not make us not able to sin - what it does (among other things) is provide us with the Grace of God to help us overcome sin. It's the same with Mary, the only difference being that she received her Grace at the first moment of her existence, whereas we receive ours at Baptism. Thus, you can be sure that she relates to us humans.

Blessings,
Marduk
But how could it be the same Grace that Mary received that we receive at our baptisms when Mary was able to remain sinless and we are not able to do so?

And then to muddy the waters we can throw in the tradition that St John the Baptist was able to remain sinless during his life as well.
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  #12  
Old Dec 30, '10, 8:59 am
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
But how could it be the same Grace that Mary received that we receive at our baptisms when Mary was able to remain sinless and we are not able to do so?

And then to muddy the waters we can throw in the tradition that St John the Baptist was able to remain sinless during his life as well.
You must remember that Grace builds upon Grace (see the Parable of the Talents). Mary throughout her life obeyed God, and so, Grace building upon Grace, her strength in holiness was built up. The same with John the Baptist.

We each have that potential. Mary struggled just as we do, but chose to cooperate throughout her life with the Grace that was given her.

It is true that since Mary received the Grace of Baptism from the first moment of her existence, she did not have concupiscence. A lot of people think concupiscence means "the ability to sin." That is a very popular misconception. Concupiscence is actually defined as the disordered use of reason. Not having concupiscence does not mean one loses the free will to sin. Remember that Adam and Eve were likewise created without concupiscence, but sinned nevertheless. So not having concupiscence does not mean one will not experience temptations, and thus struggle.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #13  
Old Dec 30, '10, 9:06 am
Robert Burns Robert Burns is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme View Post
But how could it be the same Grace that Mary received that we receive at our baptisms when Mary was able to remain sinless and we are not able to do so?

And then to muddy the waters we can throw in the tradition that St John the Baptist was able to remain sinless during his life as well.
The Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from ORIGINAL Sin by GOD. Why is this important? Because GOD Will have nothing to do with SIN. And since the Blessed Virgin Mary was to bear GOD - in the second person of the Holy Trinity - had she not been preserved from Original Sin - then Jesus would have been under Original Sin as well.

Now if you understand the Stain of Original Sin - it carries with it the Propensity to SIN. This is where Actual Sin enteres into the Equasion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary and the lord Jesus Christ were never under the Yoke of Original Sin. St John the Baptist cannot say this.
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  #14  
Old Dec 30, '10, 1:32 pm
kitkatty kitkatty is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by mardukm View Post
A lot of Catholics (particularly from the Latin Church) often respond to such a question by stating that God preserved her from sin. That is an incomplete answer.

Barbkw and Inspiritcarol gave the best answers. Mary is like any of us because she had to cooperate with the Grace of God to remain sinless. She went through the same struggles as any of us (just as Jesus did). The Grace she received at her Immaculate Conception is the same Grace we receive at Baptism. As you know, Baptism does not make us not able to sin - what it does (among other things) is provide us with the Grace of God to help us overcome sin. It's the same with Mary, the only difference being that she received her Grace at the first moment of her existence, whereas we receive ours at Baptism. Thus, you can be sure that she relates to us humans.

Blessings,
Marduk

I really like uyour explanation Mardukm and entirely agree, the only thing I would just add to your statement that the Virgin received the same grace at her conception we did at Baptism ,but unlike the rest of us co-operated with that grace perfectlyand remained without sin.
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  #15  
Old Dec 31, '10, 12:53 pm
Dakota Roberts Dakota Roberts is offline
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Default Re: Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Burns View Post
The Blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from ORIGINAL Sin by GOD. Why is this important? Because GOD Will have nothing to do with SIN. And since the Blessed Virgin Mary was to bear GOD - in the second person of the Holy Trinity - had she not been preserved from Original Sin - then Jesus would have been under Original Sin as well.

Now if you understand the Stain of Original Sin - it carries with it the Propensity to SIN. This is where Actual Sin enteres into the Equasion.

The Blessed Virgin Mary and the lord Jesus Christ were never under the Yoke of Original Sin. St John the Baptist cannot say this.
Didn't St. John the Baptist receive the purifying grace while still in the womb?
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