Secular third orders with full habits

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by EvelynEVF

Here's the root of the misconception:

Bookcat wrote: "Yes of course...the Third Orders are autonomous ..but they are still under the jurisdiction of the some of the Superiors of the Religious Order...such is the very nature of being a Third Order....such as the Minister General prob in your case"

This is NOT TRUE in the case of the SFO. We have our own Minister General, who is an SFO elected by SFOs, and he stands as an equal brother to the Ministers General of each of the friar branches.

We really are different! That's why we are called the SFO, instead of still being called a Third Order. We aren't tertiaries, because we are not under the Religious branch of the family. We are a co-equal branch. And we are the only ones like this, which is why it's easy to get confused.

This is correct. I have no idea when this happened. At some point, the friars took over the governance of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance. Let's call them by their name, so as not to confuse the canonical use "Third Order" with the Franciscan usage. To us it means third in chronological order. Anyway, more than likely, it was to protect them from heresy.

However, the Church restores their autonomy to them. They elect their First Minister General in several hundred years sometime after 1978. They have their first general chapter after several hundred years, between 1978 and the year 2000. In 2000 Pope John Paul II ratifies their new constitutions.

At the same time, the friars are rewriting our constitutions. The question of the Secular Franciscans comes up. Are we or are we not responsible for them? The answer given to us by the Holy See is that we are not responsible for them, nor are we to exert any influence in their internal affairs. We are not to govern them and they are not to form part of our provinces. They are to be completely on their own. However, we have a moral and fraternal obligation, to provide for them Spiritual Assistants. This is what went into the constitutions of the friars in the first order and friars in the third order. The SFO is free standing with its own Minister General, General Council, rule and constitutions and DOES NOT answer to any superior among the friars. The friars of the OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv, OSF, TOR are bound to offer them SPIRITUAL assistance. You can't even become a Spiritual Assistant to them SFO unless you are certified to be one. The Sacred Congregation and the Ministers General want to make sure that those friars who serve in that capacity, do not govern the SFO.

In addition, the friar who serves as Spiritual Assistant is on the council, but may not be the minister and may not vote on any matters regarding property, discipline, statutes and elections. His participation is that of a spiritual support person.

Dominicans and Carmelites, as I understand it, are under the jurisdiction of a Provincial Prior.. This is not the case for the SFO. When their regional minister and the provincial minister of the friars go to the table, they go as equals. The one does not answer to the other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by JReducation

At the same time, the friars are rewriting our constitutions. The question of the Secular Franciscans comes up. Are we or are we not responsible for them? The answer given to us by the Holy See is that we are not responsible for them, nor are we to exert any influence in their internal affairs. We are not to govern them and they are not to form part of our provinces. They are to be completely on their own. However, we have a moral and fraternal obligation, to provide for them Spiritual Assistants. This is what went into the constitutions of the friars in the first order and friars in the third order. The SFO is free standing with its own Minister General, General Council, rule and constitutions and DOES NOT answer to any superior among the friars. The friars of the OFM, OFM Cap, OFM Conv, OSF, TOR are bound to offer them SPIRITUAL assistance. You can't even become a Spiritual Assistant to them SFO unless you are certified to be one. The Sacred Congregation and the Ministers General want to make sure that those friars who serve in that capacity, do not govern the SFO.

In addition, the friar who serves as Spiritual Assistant is on the council, but may not be the minister and may not vote on any matters regarding property, discipline, statutes and elections. His participation is that of a spiritual support person.

Yes I understand the autonomy ....

There is still going to be the higher direction of the Major Superiors...such is the nature of all Third orders. In the case of the SFO such comes from the Friars Minor and Third Order Regular.

Canon 303 is even referenced in the SFO Constitutions (where it also notes that these two Orders are the ones indicated by CIC 303 for the SFO

Here by the way is the canon:

Can. 303 Associations whose members share in the spirit of some religious institute while in secular life, lead an apostolic life, and strive for Christian perfection under the higher direction of the same institute are called third orders or some other appropriate name.

Here are a few points from the Constitutions:

# The Holy See has entrusted the pastoral care and spiritual assistance of the Secular Franciscan Order (SFO), because it belongs to the same spiritual family, to the Franciscan First Order and Third Order Regular (TOR). These are the "Institutes" to whom the altius moderamen, referred to by canon 303 of the Code of Canon Law (CCL), belongs.*)

Article 46

1. (Rule 22)
The canonical establishment of the local fraternity is the duty of the competent religious major superior at the request of the brothers and sisters concerned and with the prior consultation and collaboration of the council of the higher level to which the new fraternity will be related according to the national statutes.
The written consent of the bishop is necessary for the canonical establishment of a fraternity outside the houses or churches of the Franciscan religious of the First Order or the TOR.*)

The Ministers General and Provincials exercise their office with respect to the SFO through:
-- the establishment of fraternities;
-- the pastoral visits;
-- the spiritual assistance to the fraternities at the various levels.
They may exercise this office personally or through their own delegate.

------------------------------------------------------------

But yes I agree that each Third Order communion with their respective institutes is some what different.

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by EvelynEVF

Here's the root of the misconception:

Bookcat wrote: "Yes of course...the Third Orders are autonomous ..but they are still under the jurisdiction of the some of the Superiors of the Religious Order...such is the very nature of being a Third Order....such as the Minister General prob in your case"

This is NOT TRUE in the case of the SFO. We have our own Minister General, who is an SFO elected by SFOs, and he stands as an equal brother to the Ministers General of each of the friar branches.

We really are different! That's why we are called the SFO, instead of still being called a Third Order. We aren't tertiaries, because we are not under the Religious branch of the family. We are a co-equal branch. And we are the only ones like this, which is why it's easy to get confused.

You are still under the higher direction the Major Superiors ...this does not mean that you are not governing yourselves autonomously under that higher direction...and by direction it does not need to mean the same as is in a Religious Order

Such does not mean one is not equally Franciscans. Or that the Minister General of the Secular Order is not the Minister General of the Secular Order...of course...

I leave the inner workings etc to you all...my point it that it is still a third order / secular order and by nature there is the higher direction of the Religious Institute..in your case the Holy See has determined it is the Friars Minor and the TOR...but one should not construe that it takes a way the reality of the offices within the Secular Order. And yes this can play out differently in the different Orders ...

[Bookcat]

Originally Posted by Bookcat

Secular Franciscans (Franciscan Tertiaries)
Lay Dominicans ( Dominican Tertiaries)
Secular Order of the Most Holy Trinity (Trinitarian Tertiaries)
Mercedarian Third Order (Mercedarian Tertiaries)
Lay Carmelite Third Order (Carmelite Tertiaries)
Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites (Discalced Carmelite Tertiaries)
Secular Servites (Servite Tertiaries)
Secular Augustinians (Augustinian Tertiaries)
Secular Augustinian Recollects (Augustinian Recollect Tertiaries)
Minims Tertiary

These are the historical (current) Third Orders Secular (CIC 303)

opps yet again!

One more I forgot: Premonstratensians Third Order

[carnes88]

Originally Posted by JReducation

I think there are some misunderstandings here. The original habit of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance was a tunic without a hood, a scapular and chord. It was usually worn under the street clothing.

The comparison with the Lay Dominicans is not a good one, because the Lay Dominicans are not a canonical order of Pontifical Right. They are an association that is attached to the Dominican Friars. Dominic never intended for them to be an autonomous order. That's why they wore the same habit as the friars and the nuns. Actually, the black scapular was worn by the Dominican Lay Brothers and Extern Sisters. The Lay Dominicans wore the same habit.

The Order of Friars Minor, the Order of Poor Clares, the Order of the Brothers of Penance, and the Order of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance are all Franciscan, because we are all sons and daughters of Francis of Assisi and he founded all four orders. But they are autonomous. That's why we never wore the same habit. Even the friars wear different habits according to region, ministries, and the different obediences.

In 1978 Pope Paul VI promulgated the new rule for the Third Order Secular Franciscans. He made several changes to the previous rule.

He changed the name of the order from the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, to the Secular Franciscan Order. He wanted to make sure that the Secular Order was not confused with the Regular Franciscan Order, which is known as the Brothers and Sisters of Penance.

He abolished the habit, because he wanted the Secular Franciscans to project secularity without embracing secularism. He wanted you guys to persevere in the traditions and customs of the Franciscan order, without being confused with the friars, sisters and nuns. It was decided that the Tau would replace the habit. However, those fraternities that had worn the habit for more than 100 years were allowed to keep it.

It was also Pope Paul's desire to see the Secular Franciscans more involved in the apostolic work of the local diocese as a group that would set the example for other secular men and women. It was his opinion that the use of a habit would not be effective, because you would look like religious. Therefore, other secular men and women would not be inclined to follow.

Since the rules of the four Franciscan obediences are issued with Papal Bulls, the current rule for the Secular Franciscan Order is canonically binding on all Secular Franciscans and on the rest of the Church. This means that those of us who are not Secular Franciscans, must accept the Secular Franciscans as they are described in the rule and neither laity nor bishops can interfere with them or dictate to them. Nor may we friars or the sisters and nuns dictate to them in any way, unlike the Dominicans and Carmelites who do have authority over their third orders, because they are not canonical pontifical orders as are the Secular Franciscans.

Until such time as another Pontiff raises the Papal Bull and authorizes a rewrite of the current rule, the SFO rule must be observed as is. The problem is not the rule nor the absence of a habit. The problem are the constitutions of the SFO. Those were not dictated by the pope. Those were written by the delegates to the General Chatper of 2000 and voted on by the membership of the order. In my opinion, those constitutions fail to apply the rule correctly. They confuse secularity with secularism and include an excessive enphasis on secular life of the brothers and sisters and fail to say enough about fidelity to Franciscan tradition and spirituality.

If you read the consitutions of any of the branches of friars, they are very spiritual and very theological. They have very few references to what to do when to do it and why do it. They speak about the spirit of St. Francis and provide an explanation for each point. For example, it speaks about fraternity and then explains what constitutes fraternity and why it was important to our Holy Father. Things like this are missing from the constitutions of the SFO.

Even if they wore a habit, without the spirituality, the habit is just a costume.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Does that mean that the other third orders ie the dominicans,carmel are not real religious orders or are they still real orders?

[carnes88]

Originally Posted by carnes88

Does that mean that the other third orders ie the dominicans,carmel are not real religious orders or are they still real orders?

The other third orders have the formation ie noviciate,public profession and are all binding for life so they are legally real orders correct?

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by carnes88

The other third orders have the formation ie noviciate,public profession and are all binding for life so they are legally real orders correct?

They are real orders with canonical rights. They have a different structure. The Dominican and Carmelite Third Orders do not have their own rule and were not intended to be autonomous. They are governed by the Dominican and Carmelite Friars, respectively. The Franciscan Third Order is autonomous.

The Secular Franciscans, as they are called today, are moderated by the four General Ministers of the Franciscan friars, but they also have their own General Minister who comes to the table as their equal, not as their subordinate.

The friars are not allowed to intervene in their internal affairs. They may only serve as Spiritual Assistants. Their role is to help in their spiritual formation. They do not have a voice or a vote in their deliberations.

The Secular Franciscans have a rule that Francis wrote for them, unlike the Dominicans and Carmelites who follow the same statutes as the friars. The Secular Franciscans have a very different mission and charism from the friars. Their vocation is to live a life of penance. The friars' vocation is to live a life of absolute obedience.

Both friars and seculars are to be obedient and to do penance. It's a question of intensity. While the friars place obedience above all virtues, the seculars place penance above all virtues. Francis idea was to offer each group a mission that met its spiritual needs. He did not found any of his orders with the intention of doing some specific work or responding to some specific need such as taking care of the poor, sick or educating the young. These things were to be done if and when they were necessary. The real need that he saw was for the friars to be obedient and for the seculars to be converted. You see, Francis' concern with the lay Catholic was that he saw the laity as needing conversion to Catholicism. His belief was that this would only happen through penance. That's why he writes his Rule of Penance for his third order.

Dominicans and Carmelites share the same mission as the friars. The Secular Dominicans share in the mission to preach. Secular Carmelites share in the contemplative life of the friars.

All of them are real orders. The difference is the degreee of autonomy. The Franciscan orders are very autonomous. Francis wanted a family rather than an order. It made no difference to him if there was one Franciscan order or 100 as long as all of them were obedient to the Gospel, the Church and to him. They could govern themselves, have their different ministries and missions, even wear whatever they wanted. But the friars had to obey the Gospel, the founder (him) and the bishops. The Seculars had to obey Francis' command to live a life of penance. The nuns had to obey Francis and live a live of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

Also, in the Franciscans, the Third Order was simply third because it came third in chronology. Among the Dominicans the numbering system is slightly changed. Dominic founded the nuns first. They were contemplatives who prayed for preachers. Then he founded the friars and later the seculars. Later, the Church felt that it was necessary for men to be in first place and referred to the friars as the First Order, the nuns were the Second Order and the seculars and sisters were the Third Order. This was not the case with the Franciscans.

For us, first, second and third are about chronology, not about rank.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[Niklas]

Originally Posted by Victorious

You say that any Catholic lay person should be allowed to wear a habit on special occasions, on the grounds that this is a witness. But to what are you witnessing by wearing a habit without belonging to an order? There is enough confusion out there as it is. If it's bad for priests to be indistinguishable from laymen, isn't it equally bad for laymen to be indistinguishable from priests and religious?

Whe I was young Catholics where very visible in our community this was good I believe for the Catholic church.

The Holy Father on his visit asked that christianity should not be excluded from the public arena but I fear we are doing that ourselves at a time when we should be visible in the community.

the lay person wearing a habit when teaching/representing his order does many things by doing so and adding to catholic visibility in our communities is one.

also when giving retreats or visiting schools particularly visiting schools these days the habit would be a bonus as children tend to have more respect for those wearing them and listen more readily to the teachin that they are being given.

Also some heads and teachers of a secular disposition are less likely to be disrespectful to a member of a lay order wearing the habit.

No I firmly believe its time catholics and Christians in general made themselves visible in the community.

I dont believe the secularisation of our orders has made the members of our community more comfortable with lay people and in fact has in some areas been counter productive in terms of evangelisation.

I know many non catholics have been drawn to the faith by the catholics they saw in the community and by the participation of catholics in the community so the witness value is of great importance.

I know this might seem to be not relevant in this context but if you are a teacher or employer being best friends with your pupils can have good or disaterous effects.

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by Niklas

Whe I was young Catholics where very visible in our community this was good I believe for the Catholic church.

The Holy Father on his visit asked that christianity should not be excluded from the public arena but I fear we are doing that ourselves at a time when we should be visible in the community.

the lay person wearing a habit when teaching/representing his order does many things by doing so and adding to catholic visibility in our communities is one.

also when giving retreats or visiting schools particularly visiting schools these days the habit would be a bonus as children tend to have more respect for those wearing them and listen more readily to the teachin that they are being given.

Also some heads and teachers of a secular disposition are less likely to be disrespectful to a member of a lay order wearing the habit.

No I firmly believe its time catholics and Christians in general made themselves visible in the community.

I dont believe the secularisation of our orders has made the members of our community more comfortable with lay people and in fact has in some areas been counter productive in terms of evangelisation.

I know many non catholics have been drawn to the faith by the catholics they saw in the community and by the participation of catholics in the community so the witness value is of great importance.

I know this might seem to be not relevant in this context but if you are a teacher or employer being best friends with your pupils can have good or disaterous effects.

Let's take this in baby steps.

1. A secular order is a real order. It is not a society of some kind that you can leave at your convenience.

2. Membership in a secular oder requires perpetual profession to live according to the vision of the founder and the mission given to the order by the Church.

3. Perpetual profession binds you to live according to the charism of the order 24/7, not just at meetings.

4. If there is a particular form of dress or habit that is part of the charism, it is appropriate to wear it. If there is not such dress, then it would be contrary to the charism of the order.

Whether you're a religious or a secular, the moment that you may profession in an order or in a congregation, you bind yourself to the charism. It may be wonderful for the Church and the world, but it's not part of your charism; therefore, you cannot do it. In fact, if you do what is contrary to the charism of your community, you're not contributing, you are doing harm. This happened to religious orders and to religious congregations and now we have several million lay Catholics who hate religious.

For centuries, religious had their charisms and their mission given to them by their founders. A need arose for priests in parishes and Christian teaches in schools. Religious superiors agreed to ordain many men and assign them to parishes. They also agreed to profess many men and women and assign them to teach in Catholic schools.

As time passed, these religious priests who were in parishes were so secularized, that there was no difference between them and a diocesan priest, except the habit. They lived and worked just like diocesan priests did, not as consecrated religious should live. The other religious men and women who were in schools became so academically oriented that they no longer ran schools for the poor. They ran schools for the academically gifted, which was usually the middle and upper classes.

All of these religious convinced themselves that they were doing something good for the Church. What they failed to see was that they were depriving the Church of the charism that Christ had given to their founder. You could no longer tell the difference between a Dominican, Franciscan, and Diocesan priest. You could not longer tell the difference beween a Catholic school run by the Brothers or Sisters of St. X and the very preppy private school down the street.

Suddenly, Vatican II happened and ordered every religious and secular order, as well as every religious congregation to return to its roots and to the charism of its founder, to stop trying to meet every need in the Church and dedicate ourselves to being the men and women that we were called to be. The result was catastrophic. Thousands of men and women left, because they did not enter the religious life to live a charism. They entered to do what they were doing, which was what they believed to be what the Church needed instead of what Christ had inspired in the founder.

In addition, the orders and congregations began to pull out of parishes and schools. They realized that they did not belong there. Either the parishes and schools were middle class and highers and the founder was called to serve the poorest of the poor or they were never called to run parishes or schools in the first place. When they left, the laity had a stroke and the resentment began. It has not yet died out.

No, it's not a good idea to do something because it would be good for the Church and the world, unless it's in keeping with the vision and mission of the founder and the charism of the community. You will only end up having to correct what you're doing and it will create resentment.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[FaustinaClare]

I am undergoing my first year of formation in OCDS (discalced carmelites 3rd order) and our "habit" is the brown scapular which we wear at all of our meetings. ( I get mine in December )

Is that what you mean by being buried in our habit?

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by FaustinaClare

I am undergoing my first year of formation in OCDS (discalced carmelites 3rd order) and our "habit" is the brown scapular which we wear at all of our meetings. ( I get mine in December )

Is that what you mean by being buried in our habit?

OCDS here also...get mine in Feb.!

[FaustinaClare]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

OCDS here also...get mine in Feb.!

YAY Congrats!!

[Fra Pio]

Originally Posted by JReducation

I think there are some misunderstandings here. The original habit of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance was a tunic without a hood, a scapular and chord. It was usually worn under the street clothing.

The comparison with the Lay Dominicans is not a good one, because the Lay Dominicans are not a canonical order of Pontifical Right. They are an association that is attached to the Dominican Friars. Dominic never intended for them to be an autonomous order. That's why they wore the same habit as the friars and the nuns. Actually, the black scapular was worn by the Dominican Lay Brothers and Extern Sisters. The Lay Dominicans wore the same habit.

The Order of Friars Minor, the Order of Poor Clares, the Order of the Brothers of Penance, and the Order of the Brothers and Sisters of Penance are all Franciscan, because we are all sons and daughters of Francis of Assisi and he founded all four orders. But they are autonomous. That's why we never wore the same habit. Even the friars wear different habits according to region, ministries, and the different obediences.

In 1978 Pope Paul VI promulgated the new rule for the Third Order Secular Franciscans. He made several changes to the previous rule.

He changed the name of the order from the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, to the Secular Franciscan Order. He wanted to make sure that the Secular Order was not confused with the Regular Franciscan Order, which is known as the Brothers and Sisters of Penance.

He abolished the habit, because he wanted the Secular Franciscans to project secularity without embracing secularism. He wanted you guys to persevere in the traditions and customs of the Franciscan order, without being confused with the friars, sisters and nuns. It was decided that the Tau would replace the habit. However, those fraternities that had worn the habit for more than 100 years were allowed to keep it.

It was also Pope Paul's desire to see the Secular Franciscans more involved in the apostolic work of the local diocese as a group that would set the example for other secular men and women. It was his opinion that the use of a habit would not be effective, because you would look like religious. Therefore, other secular men and women would not be inclined to follow.

Since the rules of the four Franciscan obediences are issued with Papal Bulls, the current rule for the Secular Franciscan Order is canonically binding on all Secular Franciscans and on the rest of the Church. This means that those of us who are not Secular Franciscans, must accept the Secular Franciscans as they are described in the rule and neither laity nor bishops can interfere with them or dictate to them. Nor may we friars or the sisters and nuns dictate to them in any way, unlike the Dominicans and Carmelites who do have authority over their third orders, because they are not canonical pontifical orders as are the Secular Franciscans.

Until such time as another Pontiff raises the Papal Bull and authorizes a rewrite of the current rule, the SFO rule must be observed as is. The problem is not the rule nor the absence of a habit. The problem are the constitutions of the SFO. Those were not dictated by the pope. Those were written by the delegates to the General Chatper of 2000 and voted on by the membership of the order. In my opinion, those constitutions fail to apply the rule correctly. They confuse secularity with secularism and include an excessive enphasis on secular life of the brothers and sisters and fail to say enough about fidelity to Franciscan tradition and spirituality.

If you read the consitutions of any of the branches of friars, they are very spiritual and very theological. They have very few references to what to do when to do it and why do it. They speak about the spirit of St. Francis and provide an explanation for each point. For example, it speaks about fraternity and then explains what constitutes fraternity and why it was important to our Holy Father. Things like this are missing from the constitutions of the SFO.

Even if they wore a habit, without the spirituality, the habit is just a costume.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br. JR, could you give me a link to the Bull that specifically abolished the Franciscan habit for Secular Franciscans?

Thank you!

Pax et Bonum!

[JReducation]

Originally Posted by FaustinaClare

I am undergoing my first year of formation in OCDS (discalced carmelites 3rd order) and our "habit" is the brown scapular which we wear at all of our meetings. ( I get mine in December )

Is that what you mean by being buried in our habit?

Each order has a habit of its own. I would not know what that would be for the OCD. For the Secular Franciscan it's a brown tunic, without a cowl and a chord.

Originally Posted by Fra Pio

Br. JR, could you give me a link to the Bull that specifically abolished the Franciscan habit for Secular Franciscans?

Thank you!

Pax et Bonum!

Maybe I did not explain myself well. The bull of 1978, I believe that's the year, promulgates the new rule and constitutions. The habit is abrogated in the new rule and constituions. If you have a copy of a book called Essential Documents, it should contain a copy of the bull, the rule and the constitutions in one volume. I'm a Spiritual Assistant to an SFO fraternity and that's the book that they have. It's awesome.

I hope that's helpful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

[Fra Pio]

Originally Posted by JReducation

Each order has a habit of its own. I would not know what that would be for the OCD. For the Secular Franciscan it's a brown tunic, without a cowl and a chord.



Maybe I did not explain myself well. The bull of 1978, I believe that's the year, promulgates the new rule and constitutions. The habit is abrogated in the new rule and constituions. If you have a copy of a book called Essential Documents, it should contain a copy of the bull, the rule and the constitutions in one volume. I'm a Spiritual Assistant to an SFO fraternity and that's the book that they have. It's awesome.

I hope that's helpful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Ave Maria!

Dear Br.JR, thank you, and yes, your writings are very very helpful. You do not know how much work you save us, as when some of us have ideas to write regarding the restoration of the original spirit of the SFO, we find you have already written on the topic! Thankyou!

Brother, I have read the new Rule and Constitutions, along with other documentation regarding the holy habit. However, I cannot see where Pope Paul VI has specifically abolished nor abrogated totally the use of the habit. Do you have any quotations that you could pass on?

At http://allfortheimmaculate.blogspot.com/ we gather some of your pertinent topics for the good of the Order. They are fantastic.