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  #1  
Old Jan 27, '11, 1:49 pm
BobCatholic BobCatholic is offline
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Default Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.

It is easy to go to hell but hard to get to heaven.

We now have concupiscence which means evil is our default setting and we have to work on overcoming it.

We're still not allowed in the Garden of Eden so we are still being punished for our and Adadm's imperfection when God made us this way.

This is not fair.

Tell me how we have free will when our free will is so badly compromised in the first place? Blindfold someone and they will trip. Then punish them for tripping.

Fair? No.

So how does God love us when he won't take away the concupiscence and imperfection so we can please him? It is like God does not want us to please him and just wants to punish us.
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  #2  
Old Jan 27, '11, 1:56 pm
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.

.
wrong
God created Adam and Eve perfect, and gave them free will
they chose to place their own wills ahead of God's and so they fell
he did not blindfold them and spin them around and wait for them to trip
he gave them all the knowledge they needed to choose correctly and every placed them in the ideal circumstance to obey.
everything was in their favor except their own pride
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  #3  
Old Jan 27, '11, 2:31 pm
GreggAlvarez GreggAlvarez is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.
This is the part that needs to be reconciled in order to have a discussion on the question. This is the part I disagree with because God did not create Adam and Eve imperfect. He Himself called them good in Genesis. God creates nothing that is not perfect. It is us, through original sin, that makes us imperfect. This was Adam's fault. The fact that God gave Adam free will does not make Him imperfect. One could see that as perfect because Adam and Eve so chose to love Him who created them. That perfect world was taken away when they then disobeyed. God made the world perfect including them. Perfect should not necessarily mean that only ones with the attributes of God are perfect. He IS Perfection. Hardly seems logical that Perfection will yield Imperfection. The perfection I am talking about here is Love.

Mary was just as perfect as Adam and Eve (before they fell). But, instead Mary chose to keep that perfection by obeying God.

These are my thoughts anyway. Your thoughts?
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  #4  
Old Jan 27, '11, 3:12 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.
Why do you believe this?

You're building upon an incorrect assumption.
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  #5  
Old Jan 27, '11, 3:23 pm
prodigal-sun prodigal-sun is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.

It is easy to go to hell but hard to get to heaven.

We now have concupiscence which means evil is our default setting and we have to work on overcoming it.

We're still not allowed in the Garden of Eden so we are still being punished for our and Adadm's imperfection when God made us this way.

This is not fair.

Tell me how we have free will when our free will is so badly compromised in the first place? Blindfold someone and they will trip. Then punish them for tripping.

Fair? No.

So how does God love us when he won't take away the concupiscence and imperfection so we can please him? It is like God does not want us to please him and just wants to punish us.
So you think God makes imperfect things... hmmm, at least it is nice to know where you stand. I certainly don't agree with you or your premise.

Peace!
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  #6  
Old Jan 27, '11, 3:39 pm
Bohm Bawerk Bohm Bawerk is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.

It is easy to go to hell but hard to get to heaven.

We now have concupiscence which means evil is our default setting and we have to work on overcoming it.

We're still not allowed in the Garden of Eden so we are still being punished for our and Adadm's imperfection when God made us this way.

This is not fair.

Tell me how we have free will when our free will is so badly compromised in the first place? Blindfold someone and they will trip. Then punish them for tripping.

Fair? No.

So how does God love us when he won't take away the concupiscence and imperfection so we can please him? It is like God does not want us to please him and just wants to punish us.
Adam and Eve were created perfect and they brought sin into the world. To be honest, there is really nothing you should despair about, given the fact that God later sent His only Son to die for our sins so that we may be saved.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
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  #7  
Old Jan 27, '11, 4:10 pm
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jtodisco jtodisco is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
God created Adam & Eve imperfect so they fell.

It is easy to go to hell but hard to get to heaven.

We now have concupiscence which means evil is our default setting and we have to work on overcoming it.

We're still not allowed in the Garden of Eden so we are still being punished for our and Adadm's imperfection when God made us this way.

This is not fair.

Tell me how we have free will when our free will is so badly compromised in the first place? Blindfold someone and they will trip. Then punish them for tripping.

Fair? No.

So how does God love us when he won't take away the concupiscence and imperfection so we can please him? It is like God does not want us to please him and just wants to punish us.
As just about every poster here has already said, God didn't create "imperfect" beings. He created perfect humans. Adam and Eve were perfect for their type. But God didn't want to create mindless drones, He wanted these creatures of His to bear a resemblance to Himself. He wanted them (us) to be capable of love, which is what God is. But to love one must have free will, and it necessarily follows that if you have free will you can abuse that free will, which Adam and Eve did.

We suffer from their mistake, true. Just like any children may suffer from their parents mistakes. But that's not God kicking us when we're down, that's the devil pulling us down and doing his best to keep us down. God in turn sent His Son to redeem us from sin. And not only that, but to bring us into communion with Himself. A fuller communion that existed even in Eden, so that our future state if we choose to follow God will be unimaginably better than our former state prior to the Fall.

As for God making things hard for us, or just wanting us around to "please" Him, or just enjoying punishing us...this is all a load of bull****.

Firstly, things aren't hard. All you need to do is love God and do your best to follow Him. When you mess up He will forgive you EVERY time so long as you seek His forgiveness. How much easier do you want it to be???

Second, God is perfect in Himself. He doesn't need anyone or anything. He created the universe and us out of a sheer act of loving generosity. He wants our happiness for our sake, not His. Does God want us to love Him? Of course. But does God need our praise or love? No way.

Third, God doesn't get a kick out of punishing anyone. God is love. If we go to Hell that is our own doing. It goes back to our free will. We can freely choose to love God and follow Him, or we can freely choose to deny God and be damned. God isn't going to force you to go to Heaven or to love Him.

I think many of your problems stem from a false image of God. You seem to think of God as just a much bigger, tougher, older version of a (pretty mean) human being. That's not God.

Here's an excerpt from a book I'm reading that I think you could benefit a lot from:

"Jesus' whole life bears witness to the truth we find so hard to believe: God loves us; he is unequivocally for us, not against us. The 'banquet' really exists and everyone without exception is invited. The only 'requirement' for entry is that we stop eating out of the dumpster.
In essence, Christ's life proclaims: 'You don't believe God loves you? Let me show you how much God loves you. You don't believe that God is 'gift'? This is my body given for you (see Luke 22:19). You think God wants to keep you from life? I will offer myself so that my life's blood can give you life to the full (see John 10:10). You thought God was a tyrant, a slave-driver? I will take the form of a slave (see Philippians 2:7); I will let you 'lord it over' me to demonstrate that God has no desire to 'lord it over' you (see Matthew 20:28). You thought God would whip your back if you gave him the chance? I will let you whip my back to demonstrate that God has no desire to whip yours. I have not come to condemn you but to save you (see John 3:17). I have not come to enslave you but to set you free (see Galatians 5:1). Stop persisting in your unbelief. Repent and believe in the good news (see Mark 1.15).'"
- Theology of the Body for beginners by Christopher West, pages 43-44

I also think it might be helpful for you to watch this brief video explanation on Hell by Father Robert Barron:

http://www.wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Com...s-on-Hell.aspx
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O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen
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  #8  
Old Jan 27, '11, 4:44 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Every one of us sins. This is the constant in our lives, that we are always turning back to God.

God gave us an intellect which is bound very tightly to our free will. We are to use the former to control the latter. That takes a lot of effort, starting with the first commandment, of the Old Testament.

We should have only one God, the true God. Not the God that we may want to have, One who looks away from sin, but we want to worship the one true God who looks past our sins, when we embrace Jesus Christ and the commands He gave us for living. We are not to be double-minded.

The Jews have a rich tradition about the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. Torah means "instruction." Part of that tradition is that (based on some verse in scripture) the Torah was written thousands of years before creation. So, it is not that God played out the Torah like a DVD or anything, it was that He knew what was going to happen. And, already
in the Torah we have God's promise of access to that Tree of Life, which symbolized Christ, which brings us to eternal life.

Pope John Paul II said in the book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" that some people don't believe in God because they reject the way He revealed Himself to us. That is something to think about.

God wanted to create creatures to love Him and worship Him because of their free will, not because it was programmed into them like animal instinct.

To put it one way, it's not helpful to our faith to stroll through the philosophy rock garden, picking up every pretty stone (bad ideas) that we find that distract us. We should use our intellect to study what God has revealed -- very carefully study -- and obey.
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  #9  
Old Jan 27, '11, 10:31 pm
BobCatholic BobCatholic is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzleannie View Post
wrong
God created Adam and Eve perfect, and gave them free will
If they were perfect they wouldn't have done something stupid like being disobedient to God.

Some theorize the serpent was huge and scared them into disobedience. Fear is an imperfection.
Or maybe they were so incredibly stupid that they fell for the devil's tricks. Stupidity is an imperfection.
Someone said they put their pride before God's will. Pride is an imperfection.

A perfect person does NOT make mistakes like this!!

They were NOT created perfect!!!! That part is obvious!

And then on top of this, they were punished for being imperfect.

Quote:
he gave them all the knowledge they needed to choose correctly and every placed them in the ideal circumstance to obey.
This is incorrect.
They would have known not to listen to the devil. Or not be fearful. Or not be stupid. Or not be prideful.

And you didn't answer why we are still held responsible for Adam's sin (hello, we are not in the Garden of Eden!)

If I were in the Garden of Eden I would never touch that tree and I'd take that serpent and make a Gucci handbag out of him for my wife.
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  #10  
Old Jan 28, '11, 7:32 am
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Bob,

Adam and Eve were made in the likeness of God and the pair shared in that connection to God.

Yet they had free will, to either love and obey God, or to reject Him and His one commandment.

Eve chose to become her own god, to be all powerful and to know good and evil.

Adam took no responsibilty for his own actions and in the short sighted belief that nothing had happened to Eve, he ate and sinned against his relationship with God.

Adam, when confronted of his sins, blamed Eve and then he blamed God for having given him Eve.
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  #11  
Old Jan 28, '11, 8:06 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

While Adam & Eve were created good, they certainly lacked the perfection that only God possesses. And interestingly, Gods purpose has always been the “divinization” of man-but on His terms, of course, not ours.

God could’ve -and apparently did-look down through the corridors of time and foresee not only the original sin but all personal sins that followed and, knowing they would happen, nonetheless deemed it worth it to create the world as it is and bring a greater good out of the evil which man chose to bring upon himself, rather than not create us at all.

So apparently we required this life where both good and evil are known, some molding can be performed by the Potter, sins can be taken away; our wills and consciences formed to the point where we'll choose only good over evil. Perhaps this world is intended to be more reformative-or formative, actually- than punitive, to the extent we cooperate.

BTW, I don't think it's easier to go to hell than heaven but that's just my opinion.
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"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections." - Saint Augustine

"It is love alone that gives worth to all things." - St. Teresa of Avila

Last edited by fhansen; Jan 28, '11 at 8:17 am.
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  #12  
Old Jan 28, '11, 9:02 am
styrgwillidar styrgwillidar is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Well, God created the angels as well as man, and some of those rebelled against him.

Apparently, God does not want blind obedience, or automatons that simply obey him because they were 'programmed' to do so. He did not choose to create robots, He created people who could freely choose Him or not.

True love comes from choice, a deliberate action. It is why He tells us to love even our enemies. God wants our true love, He wants a deliberate action under our control to choose to be with Him.

Heaven or Hell are choices, neither is more difficult than the other if you recognize that God's rules are not impediments to happiness. Follow God's rules on earth and your life will be happier, you'll still have challenges and burdens, ups and downs- but they will be easier to bear in joy and happiness. Break His rules and your life will be pretty miserable, you can't cheat, lie and steal your way through life and have people in your life who trust you and that you can depend on.

God created us in the same way as the angels, to freely choose who we want to be. IMHO, He allows the uncertainty to enable a free choice.
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  #13  
Old Jan 28, '11, 9:11 am
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCatholic View Post
If they were perfect they wouldn't have done something stupid like being disobedient to God.

.
we have given you the truth, as recorded in the bible, that Adam and Eve were created perfect

you cannot cling to your thesis unless you persist in denying this fundamental truth

you will not listen to the truth no matter how many people here spin on their heads trying to convey it, so you will continue to deny it no matter how many times you hear otherwise.

therefore this discussion is a waste of time.
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Whatever the Lord pleases He does, on heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. Ps. 135
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  #14  
Old Jan 28, '11, 11:13 am
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jtodisco jtodisco is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

BobCatholic, I think part of your problem understanding this notion that Adam and Eve were created "perfect" is that you seem to think that the only kind of perfection is that which God has. When people say Adam and Eve were perfect they do not mean they were duplicate Gods. That in fact is an impossibility. Rather what is meant is that they were perfect human beings, they were perfect for their "type". Think of it like this, a "perfect" dog could not comprehend Newtonian physics or poetry any more than a "perfect" human could comprehend the art of dogs sniffing other dogs butts. So Adam and Eve were perfect humans, and as humans have free will (like even we imperfect people do) that means they could choose not to follow/love God.

As for your somewhat presumptous remarks concerning what you would've done if you were Adam, what can I say? You have the benefit of knowing the whole story, you know all the details of what will happen when Adam and Eve partake of the fruit and disobey. You also know that the serpent is the devil. And lastly, you "know good and evil" unlike Adam and Eve who only knew the goodness of God having no experience of evil until they disobeyed. To say you would have done differently is like someone claiming "If I lived in Germany in the 1930's I would've stopped Hitler before he ever started WWII." How do you know that? Simply put, you don't.

Also, I've noticed that you have a bad habit of not responding to points that I and others here make that poke gaping holes in your anti-God rant. How do you expect to have an honest discussion and to gain the answers you are supposedly seeking if you aren't willing to do anything but repeat yourself and ignore anything you don't like?
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O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen
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  #15  
Old Jan 28, '11, 11:42 am
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: Why did God create us imperfect then punish us for being imperfect?

Bob, perhaps this can help you understand - imagine you have a perfect knife in one hand and a perfect fork in the other. The knife and fork will be very different from each other, yet both will be perfect of their kind.

You wouldn't say to yourself 'this fork was manufactured imperfectly because it can't cut my steak'. It's not a fork's function to cut! If the KNIFE couldn't cut your steak, then you might say the knife was made badly.

A fork would be imperfect, I suppose, if it had no handle, thus rendering it useless, or if it was made of some metal that bends out of shape really easily so it became useless that way. Or something similar.

So to say 'if Adam and Eve had been created perfect they would have lacked even the ability to sin, and certainly wouldn't have actually sinned' isn't necessarily true. Even the most perfectly created things can become, for reasons that have nothing to do with their manufacture, imperfect. With my perfect knife, for example, the user can break it or drop it and damage it that way.
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