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  #1  
Old Feb 6, '11, 7:52 pm
MercyMomma87 MercyMomma87 is offline
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Default Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Ok. So I would love input and advice on what to do about a friend of mine. I have friend who both she and her husband are Catholic but decided to get married civilly out of convenience to live together. From what I understood, since their marriage is not blessed by the Church they are living in sin until it is convalidated by the Church. Is this correct? If so, how would you recommend approaching them about this? Also, they plan on convalidating their marriage in a few months, however the wife who is planning the specifics of the event claims that it is a "wedding" to others, posts this on facebook, makes a wedding website, will having a wedding party, etc. I do not think this is a true "wedding" since they are already married. I am a bit frustrated that she is proclaiming that she is getting married and having a "wedding" since to my understanding she already is married and is now trying to make the marriage valid in the eyes of the Church by retroactivating it. I know this is a matter of semantics, but I feel that her proclaimed "wedding" belittles couples who waited until their wedding day to live together and get married in the Church. What also irks me is that the wife is a RE teacher and partakes in the sacraments while knowingly lives in sin.

SO, that being said, my question is: Am I correct in my understanding of Church teaching? If so, what should I do? I don't want to sit idle while they make a mockery of the Marriage Vocation by manipulating the sacrament, but I also want to be charitable in how I approach them. Any insight and advice, catechism quotes, etc would be GREATLY appreciated!

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  #2  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:00 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
From what I understood, since their marriage is not blessed by the Church they are living in sin until it is convalidated by the Church. Is this correct?
Yes. They are in an invalid marriage and committing a grave sin against the sixth commandment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
If so, how would you recommend approaching them about this? Also, they plan on convalidating their marriage in a few months, however the wife who is planning the specifics of the event claims that it is a "wedding" to others, posts this on facebook, makes a wedding website, will having a wedding party, etc. I do not think this is a true "wedding" since they are already married.
Well, it is a true wedding because she is not currently married.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
I am a bit frustrated that she is proclaiming that she is getting married and having a "wedding" since to my understanding she already is married and is now trying to make the marriage valid in the eyes of the Church by retroactivating it.
Convalidation is the exchange of consent. It creates a valid marriage. Radical sanation is retroactive. Convalidation is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
I know this is a matter of semantics, but I feel that her proclaimed "wedding" belittles couples who waited until their wedding day to live together and get married in the Church. What also irks me is that the wife is a RE teacher and partakes in the sacraments while knowingly lives in sin.
Her pastor has been very remiss in his dealings with her. And, yes, typically a convalidation is a much lower key event than a wedding between those who did not choose to disregard Church teaching and law on marriage, but there isn't anything that prohibits a full-on Knot-style wedding-- except the pastor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
SO, that being said, my question is: Am I correct in my understanding of Church teaching?
Not really.

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Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
If so, what should I do?
Decide whether or not you will attend the gift-grab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
I don't want to sit idle while they make a mockery of the Marriage Vocation by manipulating the sacrament, but I also want to be charitable in how I approach them. Any insight and advice, catechism quotes, etc would be GREATLY appreciated!
That's really for their priest to do. Just be thankful they plan to rectify the situation at all.

Pray for them.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #3  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:12 pm
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Oneofthewomen Oneofthewomen is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Based on the information given to me regarding my own marriage,
this couple is not sacramentally married, although the state says they are, the Church does not.
I was in the same situation, and was told that because we married in a civil ceremony, without the proprer dispensation from the Chrurch, we would indeed have to be "married", using the Rite of Marriage (with or without the Celebration of the Eucharist), and that a "simple convalidation" was not the remedy to our situation.

So in that regard, the person you are referring to is correct- she is having a wedding. I do agree that it seems a little odd to be making the ceremony into a big event, but that, I guess is up to the couple, and the priest who is going to perform the ceremony.
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  #4  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:20 pm
FAB FAB is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

A convalidation will make the civil marriage sacramental.
Support you friends in proceeding with it. Usually a convalidation is not the extavagansa of a first time marrage, but certainly a time for celebration.
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  #5  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:21 pm
MercyMomma87 MercyMomma87 is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

I guess my frustration is that, while I am grateful that they are convaildating their marriage, they intentionally got married legally this way. Both were practicing/educated members of the Church prior to getting married legally, and fully consented to diminish Christ in their lives by consenting to a civil marriage. They knowingly, willfully, and intentionally decided to not participate in sacramental living out of convenience. I guess you could say I'm frustrated, but more so I am saddened that they would cheapen their relationship with God because their couldn't wait. And to some extent I feel that since they were poorly guided by their parish priest to do so, they will continue the poor catechisis by educating others in RE.
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  #6  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:26 pm
FAB FAB is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
I guess my frustration is that, while I am grateful that they are convaildating their marriage, they intentionally got married legally this way. Both were practicing/educated members of the Church prior to getting married legally, and fully consented to diminish Christ in their lives by consenting to a civil marriage. They knowingly, willfully, and intentionally decided to not participate in sacramental living out of convenience. I guess you could say I'm frustrated, but more so I am saddened that they would cheapen their relationship with God because their couldn't wait. And to some extent I feel that since they were poorly guided by their parish priest to do so, they will continue the poor catechisis by educating others in RE.
Relationships with God are a personal. It is better to look at this as God calling them to do waht is right. God forgives, we are called to do the same, not to be judgemental, They may had made a decision for persaonal convience, but it should be celbrated that thay want things to be made right.
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  #7  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:53 pm
Phemie Phemie is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen View Post
I was in the same situation, and was told that because we married in a civil ceremony, without the proprer dispensation from the Chrurch, we would indeed have to be "married", using the Rite of Marriage (with or without the Celebration of the Eucharist), and that a "simple convalidation" was not the remedy to our situation.
If you spoke your vows again in the Church, that was a "simple convalidation", as opposed to a "radical sanation" which doesn't involve repeating the vows.
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  #8  
Old Feb 6, '11, 8:57 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneofthewomen View Post
I was in the same situation, and was told that because we married in a civil ceremony, without the proprer dispensation from the Chrurch, we would indeed have to be "married", using the Rite of Marriage (with or without the Celebration of the Eucharist), and that a "simple convalidation" was not the remedy to our situation.
I don't know who told you this, because it isn't accurate.

What you had *was* a simple convalidation. The Rite of Marriage is used in a simple convalidation.

The other way an invalid marriage becomes valid is through a radical sanation. Sanation is a convalidation that does not include a new exchange of consent.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #9  
Old Feb 6, '11, 9:22 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercyMomma87 View Post
... I am a bit frustrated that she is proclaiming that she is getting married and having a "wedding" since to my understanding she already is married and is now trying to make the marriage valid in the eyes of the Church by retroactivating it....
There are two kinds of validation, simple (with new consent) and retroactive (using perduing consent), both are sacramental only from the moment they are granted; retroactivity is only in canonical effects, not sacramental effect.

Can. 1157 The renewal of consent must be a new act of will consenting to a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was invalid from the beginning.

Can. 1161 1 The retroactive validation of an invalid marriage is its validation without the renewal of consent, granted by the competent authority. It involves a dispensation from an impediment if there is one and from the canonical form if it had not been observed, as well as a referral back to the past of the canonical effects. 2 The validation takes place from the moment the favour is granted; the referral back, however, is understood to have been made to the moment the marriage was celebrated, unless it is otherwise expressly provided.
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  #10  
Old Feb 6, '11, 9:39 pm
PbloPicasso PbloPicasso is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Ike, Why is a radical senation retroactive and a convalidation not?

There must be a reason. I wanted to do a radical sanation before being manipulated into a convalidation. I was told that a convalidation was better. If this is the case, then why isn't it also retroactive?
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  #11  
Old Feb 6, '11, 10:17 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

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Originally Posted by PbloPicasso View Post
Ike, Why is a radical senation retroactive and a convalidation not?
Simple convalidation involves a new exchange of consent and that is the point at which the marriage becomes valid.

Radical sanation is a convalidation in which the bishop accepts the original exchange of consent as valid.

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I was told that a convalidation was better.
It isn't a matter of one being better than the other. Which is appropriate depends upon the particular facts of the situation. Sanation is not an option in every case.

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Originally Posted by PbloPicasso View Post
If this is the case, then why isn't it also retroactive?
Because by definition it is the giving of new consent making the marriage valid at the time of the consent.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #12  
Old Feb 6, '11, 10:20 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PbloPicasso View Post
Ike, Why is a radical senation retroactive and a convalidation not?

There must be a reason. I wanted to do a radical sanation before being manipulated into a convalidation. I was told that a convalidation was better. If this is the case, then why isn't it also retroactive?
Retroactive is used when 1) the priest has not obtained proper dispensations or approvals (and so the couple does not need to be informed of it) or 2) one party will not cooperate in having the marriage convalidated through a ceremony, or 3) it is not agreed to that the marriage is a new marriage.

It is better to have the ceremony with new consent. It is not retroactive because that extends to the moment of the consent that is used, so new consent is "now" and retroactive consent is "then".
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Old Feb 6, '11, 10:22 pm
PbloPicasso PbloPicasso is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Simple convalidation involves a new exchange of consent and that is the point at which the marriage becomes valid.

Radical sanation is a convalidation in which the bishop accepts the original exchange of consent as valid.



It isn't a matter of one being better than the other. Which is appropriate depends upon the particular facts of the situation. Sanation is not an option in every case.



Because by definition it is the giving of new consent making the marriage valid at the time of the consent.
I understand the terms now, yet, it seems to be a blow below the belt because my wife was not Catholic and now her marriage is only recognized by the Church since the convalidation. It also feels sleazy (dirty) in that we had children before this point. My reasons were actually just in that I had no safe place to turn during my time and I also received bad advice from a priest. I feel sick about the whole thing and the priest that did the convalidation told me that "he felt we needed a sacramental blessing. My wife's family is anti-Catholic. Getting married to her according to Catholic rites would not have been possible back then. Her daddy was an elder and would never have approved. Her mom believes we are pagans now.
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  #14  
Old Feb 6, '11, 10:38 pm
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

Quote:
Originally Posted by PbloPicasso View Post
I understand the terms now, yet, it seems to be a blow below the belt because my wife was not Catholic and now her marriage is only recognized by the Church since the convalidation. It also feels sleazy (dirty) in that we had children before this point. My reasons were actually just in that I had no safe place to turn during my time and I also received bad advice from a priest. I feel sick about the whole thing and the priest that did the convalidation told me that "he felt we needed a sacramental blessing. My wife's family is anti-Catholic. Getting married to her according to Catholic rites would not have been possible back then. Her daddy was an elder and would never have approved. Her mom believes we are pagans now.
I don't really understand what your issue is.

Your marriage is valid. Be at peace.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #15  
Old Feb 7, '11, 1:20 am
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Sacrament of Marriage Vs. Convalidation

PbloPicasso,

The sacramental marriage would begin at your validation date regardless of which type of validation, but the children are legitimate with both types!

Either type of validation would result in the marriage beginning at the grant of the validation by the Church, not in the past.

Retro:

For retroactive canonical effects which could be referred back to the moment the marriage was celebrated are, e.g., filiation, financial regime, the right of inheritance, unless it is otherwise expressly provided. An example is that children conceived or born before the retroactive validation are considered legitimate (Can.1137). *

Simple:

Those conceived or born before a simple validation are considered illegitimate before the simple validation but are legitimated by it (Can.1139). *

Yet canonically, legitimated children are equivalent to legitimate children in all ways, unless it is otherwise expressly provided by law (Can.1140). *

* http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P42.HTM
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