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  #1  
Old Feb 13, '11, 3:18 pm
PhilomenaJohn2 PhilomenaJohn2 is offline
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Default Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

I was just wondering if anyone knew if the Carmelites in Valparaiso NE wear wedding dressing when they make their profession. I forgot to ask when I was there, and I haven't been able to find anything online. Does anyone know?
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  #2  
Old Feb 14, '11, 8:23 am
barb finnegan barb finnegan is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

They don't wear the wedding dresses when they make their professions-they wear them when they're clothed in the Carmelite habit and enter the novitiate. Big difference!

I've never been to the Valparaiso Carmel myself; I'm only saying this from reading about the lives of Carmelite Saints such as St. Therese of Lisieux and Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity. I've seen photos of the latter in her wedding dress the day she took the habit in 1901.

When Carmelite nuns make their profession, it's a private ceremony done within the enclosure-no family members are present.
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  #3  
Old Feb 15, '11, 4:27 pm
carmelitegirl93 carmelitegirl93 is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

No they dont not even before they enter or when they take the Holy veil.
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  #4  
Old Feb 16, '11, 1:08 am
LaudemGloriae LaudemGloriae is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barb finnegan View Post
When Carmelite nuns make their profession, it's a private ceremony done within the enclosure-no family members are present.
I've always wondered about this as it's in their Constitutions, but I've never heard of any Carmel actually doing it this way, even very traditional ones. Perhaps this was changed, even for them. For one instance, there was actually once on youtube a Solemn Profession of a nun at Valparaiso (which was taken down, thanks be to God .. they want/need to stay hidden) But anyway, it was a big event with the Bishop and her family was present and everything. I have heard of other solemn professions at the various traditional Carmels throughout our country that were like this also .. with the bishop and many people in attendance.

This is seriously something I want to ask about next time I visit Carmel .. it is interesting. St. Therese definitely made her profession in private .. in the chapter room I believe it was. So I wonder when/why this changed and if there are still Carmels that do it this way .. or if it's possibly a difference between French and Spanish customs.

About wedding dresses, I'm not sure about Valparaiso/Elysburg .. but it sounds like carmelitegirl knows they don't. I know a number of other traditional Carmels used to and don't anymore either. The only two I know for sure that still do (that are both under the 1990 Constitutions) are Dallas, TX and Littleton, CO. And yes, they wear them for the reception of the habit/investiture.

p.s. one more - this Carmel in Australia https://picasaweb.google.com/ballina...c/NewCarmelite

http://www.flowerofcarmel.com/

Last edited by LaudemGloriae; Feb 16, '11 at 1:19 am.
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  #5  
Old Feb 16, '11, 8:47 am
barb finnegan barb finnegan is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

That's true-I never thought that the customs observed at ceremonies of Clothing and Profession would differ from Carmel to Carmel. I had forgotten that they are autonomous.

I didn't know that there was a YouTube video of a Profession in Valparaiso. Good thing it was taken down out of respect for the nuns and their privacy.

When I was younger (mid-teens to mid-twenties) I thought about becoming a Carmelite nun. Once I asked the nuns of the monastery I was looking into if there was any chance of me being able to come for a clothing ceremony. They wrote back to say that it was not done that way anymore.

The only public ceremony was the Final Profession and Taking of the Veil. I was able to attend that ceremony in 1974. I even had a part in the Offertory procession with two other young women who were thinking of entering. I had to carry a large bronze pitcher and basin for the washing of the hands at Mass. Somehow my index finger got caught in the fingers of the Bishop of Albany [the previous one, not the current one], and I had to gently pull my hand away. I didn't say anything, but the look on my face said to him, 'Bishop, please give me my finger back!'

I also visited in the speak room afterwards with the Mother Prioress, the newly-professed and her family. They were from out-of-state (Connectcut, I think), and the brother-in-law broke everyone up by trying in a teasing way to poke his fingers through the grille to touch Reverend Mother's hand. She smiled gently and in an embarassed tone said, 'No...no.'
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  #6  
Old Mar 10, '11, 8:28 pm
lmgilbert lmgilbert is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

My daughter is at Valparaiso. All the ceremonies take place in the nun's chapel, which is behind a very formidable grill to the right of the altar, roughly equivalent to being the right transept in a cruciform church. The postulant entering, the novice receiving the habit, and the nun making profession kneel at the window in the grill which permits the nuns to receive Holy Communion. There she answers whatever questions the celebrant may put to her, and makes whatever public professions the ceremony requires. Apart from that the rest of the ceremony takes place entirely within their chapel, out of the public's sight, or that of the family either for that matter. A wedding dress is not part of any of the ceremonies.
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  #7  
Old Mar 12, '11, 9:51 am
PhilomenaJohn2 PhilomenaJohn2 is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmgilbert View Post
My daughter is at Valparaiso. All the ceremonies take place in the nun's chapel, which is behind a very formidable grill to the right of the altar, roughly equivalent to being the right transept in a cruciform church. The postulant entering, the novice receiving the habit, and the nun making profession kneel at the window in the grill which permits the nuns to receive Holy Communion. There she answers whatever questions the celebrant may put to her, and makes whatever public professions the ceremony requires. Apart from that the rest of the ceremony takes place entirely within their chapel, out of the public's sight, or that of the family either for that matter. A wedding dress is not part of any of the ceremonies.
Thanks for letting me know Since your daughter entered, maybe you would know the answer to another question- did your daughter bring anything with her when she entered as a postulant? (I keep meaning to ask M. Teresa, but I always forget to put it in the letter)
I've always wondered, bc the nuns can't own anything personally, but it seems like they would bring things like a toothbrush etc, but like I said, I keep forgetting to ask!
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  #8  
Old Mar 14, '11, 4:33 pm
The Curt Jester The Curt Jester is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilomenaJohn2 View Post
Thanks for letting me know Since your daughter entered, maybe you would know the answer to another question- did your daughter bring anything with her when she entered as a postulant? (I keep meaning to ask M. Teresa, but I always forget to put it in the letter)
I've always wondered, bc the nuns can't own anything personally, but it seems like they would bring things like a toothbrush etc, but like I said, I keep forgetting to ask!
Well, I'm not the person the question is directed to, but as my sister is a Carmelite, I can give an answer from her experience. I don't know exactly what she brought, but she had a few things in a little tote bag. The only items that I know for sure were in there were a pair of organist's shoes. She needed those!
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  #9  
Old Mar 14, '11, 7:17 pm
lmgilbert lmgilbert is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

"Thanks for letting me know Since your daughter entered, maybe you would know the answer to another question- did your daughter bring anything with her when she entered as a postulant? (I keep meaning to ask M. Teresa, but I always forget to put it in the letter)
I've always wondered, bc the nuns can't own anything personally, but it seems like they would bring things like a toothbrush etc, but like I said, I keep forgetting to ask! "

if you send Mother a letter asking permission to enter, and if she gives you permission, she will also send along a list of the things you should bring and some of the things you might consider doing before entering, such as studying a little Spanish-since the house has somewhat of a Spanish culture about it, a little Latin. One fairly expensive item they ask you to bring is a Liber Usualis (roughly $90 or so as I recall), My wife says to tell you that it is all personal stuff that you would be required to bring. They've got the sheets and towels, blankets, etc. There is no dowry, btw.
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  #10  
Old Mar 14, '11, 7:30 pm
PhilomenaJohn2 PhilomenaJohn2 is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

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Originally Posted by The Curt Jester View Post
. The only items that I know for sure were in there were a pair of organist's shoes. She needed those!
I'll bet! Those sandals that they normally wear are prob not the best for organ-playing
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  #11  
Old Mar 14, '11, 7:33 pm
PhilomenaJohn2 PhilomenaJohn2 is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmgilbert View Post
"Thanks for letting me know Since your daughter entered, maybe you would know the answer to another question- did your daughter bring anything with her when she entered as a postulant? (I keep meaning to ask M. Teresa, but I always forget to put it in the letter)
I've always wondered, bc the nuns can't own anything personally, but it seems like they would bring things like a toothbrush etc, but like I said, I keep forgetting to ask! "

if you send Mother a letter asking permission to enter, and if she gives you permission, she will also send along a list of the things you should bring and some of the things you might consider doing before entering, such as studying a little Spanish-since the house has somewhat of a Spanish culture about it, a little Latin. One fairly expensive item they ask you to bring is a Liber Usualis (roughly $90 or so as I recall), My wife says to tell you that it is all personal stuff that you would be required to bring. They've got the sheets and towels, blankets, etc. There is no dowry, btw.
Thanks for getting back to me- I did wonder about the dowry bc the old Carmelite stories mention it, but it probably went the way of the "serving sisters" Thank you for the heads up about the Spanish. I've studied some Italian, but they're not quite the same
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  #12  
Old Mar 15, '11, 9:35 pm
lmgilbert lmgilbert is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilomenaJohn2 View Post
Thanks for getting back to me- I did wonder about the dowry bc the old Carmelite stories mention it, but it probably went the way of the "serving sisters" Thank you for the heads up about the Spanish. I've studied some Italian, but they're not quite the same
PhilomenaJohn2,

As you are aware, if you enter you will be singing all the offices and assisting at Mass in Latin. Italian is a lot like Latin, but there are many many differences. I'd strongly encourage anyone entering to get as much Latin as possible, because once you enter there is virtually no time for study. It is a very busy, intense life. You don't want to be in the position of singing and reading without understanding for many hours every day. Of course, you will pick up a lot, but still...

My daughter writes,
"I just finished my fifteen minutes of Latin review. Did I ever tell you that I try to study a little Latin? For the last year and half or two [four other nuns and I] have met relatively regularly to work our way through Wheelock's Latin and were supposed to have been doing five to ten minutes of Latin review daily. Ha! A couple of months ago , I looked at the most recent page of my "notes." The top date on the page was February something 2010, and every other line there was anew date with "For next time do Chapter 18 (or 19 or 20)" written next to it, ending with a date in November 2010 when I gave up pretending I was going to do any Latin. Happily we have discovered a new book...called Latin by the Natural Method....

So you can see it is a struggle, and this for a gal who was fluent in French, taught ESL in Spain, was an A student all the way through.... Once you're in, the emphasis is on prayer, not study.
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  #13  
Old Mar 17, '11, 8:17 am
PhilomenaJohn2 PhilomenaJohn2 is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmgilbert View Post
PhilomenaJohn2,

As you are aware, if you enter you will be singing all the offices and assisting at Mass in Latin. Italian is a lot like Latin, but there are many many differences. I'd strongly encourage anyone entering to get as much Latin as possible, because once you enter there is virtually no time for study. It is a very busy, intense life. You don't want to be in the position of singing and reading without understanding for many hours every day. Of course, you will pick up a lot, but still...

My daughter writes,
"I just finished my fifteen minutes of Latin review. Did I ever tell you that I try to study a little Latin? For the last year and half or two [four other nuns and I] have met relatively regularly to work our way through Wheelock's Latin and were supposed to have been doing five to ten minutes of Latin review daily. Ha! A couple of months ago , I looked at the most recent page of my "notes." The top date on the page was February something 2010, and every other line there was anew date with "For next time do Chapter 18 (or 19 or 20)" written next to it, ending with a date in November 2010 when I gave up pretending I was going to do any Latin. Happily we have discovered a new book...called Latin by the Natural Method....

So you can see it is a struggle, and this for a gal who was fluent in French, taught ESL in Spain, was an A student all the way through.... Once you're in, the emphasis is on prayer, not study.
Thanks for the heads up! IDK if there's a Rosetta Stone for Latin, but there must be something since people still need to learn it even though it "died" ages ago
When I went to my first Latin Mass, I thought I could "figure it out" bc I've sung a lot of different Masses by various old composers, but the sheer amount of Latin was a little overwhelming, so clearly, there's still some work to do
Thank you for being so helpful- I am hoping to enter the Valaparaiso Carmel someday, and it's been wonderful to be able to talk to others who are familiar with it. BC I live in Iowa right now, I can only communicate with Mother via snail mail, and I haven't had a chance to visit since January. I haven't formally applied yet bc I have to pay my student loans back and I'm still in school, and I know I can't enter with debt. That said, I've been praying to St. Joseph about this, and I'm confident that if the Lord wants me to enter, He'll open a door somehow
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Old Mar 17, '11, 7:34 pm
lmgilbert lmgilbert is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilomenaJohn2 View Post
Thanks for the heads up! IDK if there's a Rosetta Stone for Latin, but there must be something since people still need to learn it even though it "died" ages ago
When I went to my first Latin Mass, I thought I could "figure it out" bc I've sung a lot of different Masses by various old composers, but the sheer amount of Latin was a little overwhelming, so clearly, there's still some work to do
Thank you for being so helpful- I am hoping to enter the Valaparaiso Carmel someday, and it's been wonderful to be able to talk to others who are familiar with it. BC I live in Iowa right now, I can only communicate with Mother via snail mail, and I haven't had a chance to visit since January. I haven't formally applied yet bc I have to pay my student loans back and I'm still in school, and I know I can't enter with debt. That said, I've been praying to St. Joseph about this, and I'm confident that if the Lord wants me to enter, He'll open a door somehow

PhilomenaJohn2,

There is a book by Dom Matthew Britt, O.S.B. called "A Dictionary of the Psalter-Containing the vocabulary of the Psalms, Hymns, Canticles, and miscellareous prayers of the Breviary Psalter", published by Benziger Brothers in 1923. This book is available through Lulu.com. It's about 300 pp.in length, and would make excellent bedtime reading until that glorious day when you enter. Mother Agnes is very enamoured of that book, of that I am quite sure. That would give you all the vocabulary you need, practically. As you saw in my daughter's letter, they were working their way through Wheelock's grammar, and I am pretty sure that is THE grammar with which to familarize yourself. Wheelock's vocabularly, however, would probably be about battles, the Roman culture of the time, and so forth.

As for Spanish, knowing this is far less important than the Latin, and working your way through Pimsleur Spanish or Rosetta Stone would probably be more than enough. There are some Spanish sayings emblazoned on some of the walls, and Mother Teresa is known as Nuestra Madre, but the nuns don't speak Spanish to one another or anything like that.

Although you're in school, I hope you won't continue to accumulate more debt in order to stay there. Why would you?

Elsewhere I have read of parishes which have thrown fundraisers for young women who wanted to enter religious life, but who were prevented by their student loans. And from the reaction of our home parish to my daughter's entering Carmel, I can well believe it. People were inspired by it and thrilled by it, and I am sure would have come to our aid if we had indicated a need. You might talk with your pastor about that, or with the local Serra Club, or with the womens's club of the parish if tthere is one, or the Knights of Columbus. Also, it may be that the vocations director of your diocese has some ideas or some connections that could help you. Regarding all of the above, there is nothing to be lost by asking. Also, a good confessor once told me that St. Nicholas is the go-to man for financial help. And if I should win the lottery I shall put ads in all the Iowa papers looking for you
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Old Mar 18, '11, 5:21 am
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DaughterOfMary6 DaughterOfMary6 is offline
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Default Re: Valparaiso NE Carmelites?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilomenaJohn2 View Post
Thanks for the heads up! IDK if there's a Rosetta Stone for Latin, but there must be something since people still need to learn it even though it "died" ages ago
When I went to my first Latin Mass, I thought I could "figure it out" bc I've sung a lot of different Masses by various old composers, but the sheer amount of Latin was a little overwhelming, so clearly, there's still some work to do
Thank you for being so helpful- I am hoping to enter the Valaparaiso Carmel someday, and it's been wonderful to be able to talk to others who are familiar with it. BC I live in Iowa right now, I can only communicate with Mother via snail mail, and I haven't had a chance to visit since January. I haven't formally applied yet bc I have to pay my student loans back and I'm still in school, and I know I can't enter with debt. That said, I've been praying to St. Joseph about this, and I'm confident that if the Lord wants me to enter, He'll open a door somehow
If you're interested in finding a way to pay back your student loans quickly so you can enter, I suggest applying for the Mater Ecclesiae Fund for Vocations or the Laboure Society or both. I have known several people who thought they wouldn't be able to enter when they wanted to because of excessive debt and both of these helped.
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