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  #1  
Old Feb 14, '11, 2:24 pm
catholic1seeks's Avatar
catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Steps to Justification?

I have a justification Q~

I'm confused about the fact that (1) in justification, the virtues of faith, hope, and charity are infused into the soul and (2) faith, hope, and charity are required for justification.

How are faith, hope, and charity required for justification if these virtues aren't infused until Baptism?

For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.com) entry on Sanctifying Grace says "According to this the process of justification follows a regular order of progression in four stages: from faith to fear, from fear to hope, from hope to incipient charity, from incipient charity to contrition with purpose of amendment. If the contrition be perfect (contritio caritate perfecta), then active justification results, that is, the soul is immediately placed in the state of grace even before the reception of the sacrament of baptism or penance, though not without the desire for the sacrament (votum sacramenti)."

This entry was referring to Council of Trent. So God's grace moves us to have faith, hope, and "incipient love" before we are justified, but then Catholic teaching is that we receive these three virtues at the moment of justification, along with sanctifying grace.

Can you guys hjelp me understand this? Is the faith before justification different from the faith received at justification, the hope different, etc?
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  #2  
Old Feb 14, '11, 5:05 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

Paragraph 1987-2029

Information there is in three sections in that unit: Justification, Grace and Christian Holiness.
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  #3  
Old Feb 14, '11, 5:47 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbkw View Post
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

Paragraph 1987-2029

Information there is in three sections in that unit: Justification, Grace and Christian Holiness.
Yes I have read this before. Is there a certain paragraph that addresses my specific Q?

What I have read about justification is that faith, hope, and charity are infused into our souls along with sanctifying grace at baptism; but faith, hope, and love are steps that lead up to justification. Is the faith leading to justification different from that received at baptism; is charity different before and after, etc.???
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  #4  
Old Feb 14, '11, 5:49 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Were you baptised as a child or as an adult?
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  #5  
Old Feb 14, '11, 6:17 pm
david_friol david_friol is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

This is my personal favorite talk on justification. It is in 18 parts and rather long but justification is a very big and important subject. I think it is well worth the time it takes.
Just flip down to his talk, it is easy to put to Itunes too

http://catholicaudio.blogspot.com/se...ert%20Sungenis
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  #6  
Old Feb 14, '11, 6:42 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbkw View Post
Were you baptised as a child or as an adult?
child @ 8
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  #7  
Old Feb 14, '11, 7:44 pm
Barbkw Barbkw is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Faith, hope and charity are gifts of grace, however we have to learn both how to receive them and how to give them away.
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  #8  
Old Feb 15, '11, 4:34 pm
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

I see it as a strengthening and increase of those Virtues if they are already present due to extraordinary graces. As an adult, they can receive the gift of Faith before the other virtues and graces, yet Faith is only perfected at the reception of them. An infant receives all of them at Baptism.
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  #9  
Old Feb 15, '11, 5:34 pm
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catholic1seeks catholic1seeks is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Sorry, I don't think I've been clear on what I'm asking.

At the moment we are initially justified, sanctifying grace along with faith, hope, and charity are infused into our souls. But the Church also teaches (Council of Trent) that faith, hope, and "incipient charity" lead up to justification. What's the difference before and after? How can one have the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity and still not be justified???

The Council of Trent, as the newadvent article says, says that prior to the infusion of sanctifying grace, the following process happens: faith leads to fear, fear to hope, and hope to charity. Yet the Church also teaches that these virtues are infused into the soul at the moment of justification (I'm talking about initial justification; i.e., Baptism).

Maybe does it have to do with the fact that we can have faith and hope and still not be in the state of sanctifying grace; for example, think of the person in the state of mortal sin. What's lacking is the virtue of Charity & sanctifying grace. Is this similar?

??
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Faith, Hope, & Love:
The Greatest of these is
LOVE.
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  #10  
Old Feb 15, '11, 5:49 pm
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Pug Pug is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
??
I glanced at this thread earlier and have not spend enough time to answer you properly, but no one has answered you yet. Yes, you were perfectly clear, by the way. Have you noticed that they are infused theological virtues? And a virtue is a habit or some type of disposition? Perhaps some distinguishment can be made on that score. I don't know, though, I haven't thought about that fully. But I thought I'd at least post it so you had something to consider.
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  #11  
Old Feb 17, '11, 1:03 pm
Catholic Dude Catholic Dude is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
Sorry, I don't think I've been clear on what I'm asking.

At the moment we are initially justified, sanctifying grace along with faith, hope, and charity are infused into our souls. But the Church also teaches (Council of Trent) that faith, hope, and "incipient charity" lead up to justification. What's the difference before and after? How can one have the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity and still not be justified???

The Council of Trent, as the newadvent article says, says that prior to the infusion of sanctifying grace, the following process happens: faith leads to fear, fear to hope, and hope to charity. Yet the Church also teaches that these virtues are infused into the soul at the moment of justification (I'm talking about initial justification; i.e., Baptism).

Maybe does it have to do with the fact that we can have faith and hope and still not be in the state of sanctifying grace; for example, think of the person in the state of mortal sin. What's lacking is the virtue of Charity & sanctifying grace. Is this similar?
One is justified justified when sanctifying grace plus faith, hope, and charity are infused. If this ever happens prior to Baptism, it's an extraordinary occurrence (e.g. Baptism of Desire or Blood), and upon Baptism each of them is strengthened. One can have faith and hope (and "incipient charity") prior to Baptism and not be justified.

I think one issue here is that you're not recognizing each infused virtue can increase; prior to Baptism they're seedling form. And when one falls into mortal sin, the lose sanctifying grace and charity, but not automatically hope and faith. For things like hope and faith to be lost, you have to commit the specific sins of despair and apostasy, respectively.
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  #12  
Old Feb 17, '11, 3:01 pm
James224 James224 is offline
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Default Re: Steps to Justification?

Quote:
Originally Posted by catholic1seeks View Post
I have a justification Q~

I'm confused about the fact that (1) in justification, the virtues of faith, hope, and charity are infused into the soul and (2) faith, hope, and charity are required for justification.

How are faith, hope, and charity required for justification if these virtues aren't infused until Baptism?

For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.com) entry on Sanctifying Grace says "According to this the process of justification follows a regular order of progression in four stages: from faith to fear, from fear to hope, from hope to incipient charity, from incipient charity to contrition with purpose of amendment. If the contrition be perfect (contritio caritate perfecta), then active justification results, that is, the soul is immediately placed in the state of grace even before the reception of the sacrament of baptism or penance, though not without the desire for the sacrament (votum sacramenti)."

This entry was referring to Council of Trent. So God's grace moves us to have faith, hope, and "incipient love" before we are justified, but then Catholic teaching is that we receive these three virtues at the moment of justification, along with sanctifying grace.

Can you guys hjelp me understand this? Is the faith before justification different from the faith received at justification, the hope different, etc?
Faith, Hope and Charity exists and are exercised in the soul prior to Baptism by adults through Actual Grace or through natural virtue. In other words, even pagans have some virtue. What happens as a result of Baptism is that Faith, Hope and Charity become supercharged so to speak through Sanctifying Grace.
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