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  #1  
Old Feb 23, '11, 1:19 pm
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oneplustwo oneplustwo is offline
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Default Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Ephesians 5:21-33

Should I seek to live this scripture passage in my marriage? I am not married so I have the freedom to seek a woman who would agree with me on this subject. But wherever I turn when this subject comes up, I face a lot of resistance and it makes me wonder if I am doing something wrong.

Do you have any advice?
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  #2  
Old Feb 23, '11, 1:33 pm
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

This is not a matter for a few pithy lines, I'm thinking.

I'd advise that you look up the homilies on Ephesians by St. John Chrysostom. There is a paperback of his homilies that I think can still be found, titled "On Marriage and Family Life". Otherwise, you can find them online, as well. He died in 407, but I think you will be astonished with how well-acquainted he is with modern rationalizations. Human nature does not change so much as we suppose.
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  #3  
Old Feb 23, '11, 1:35 pm
agapewolf agapewolf is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Understand what it means. Women who resist it most likely don't know what it means either.

"submission" = under the mission

The husband's mission is to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

to love= will the good of the other, which is heaven. Christ died for the church.

His mission to help his wife get to heaven, even if it kills him. A wife is to be "under the mission".
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  #4  
Old Feb 23, '11, 2:04 pm
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oneplustwo oneplustwo is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Thanks for the feedback.

I guess what I am still wondering is if this is something that is important, and a good thing when understood properly, why is there so little support for it among Catholics? I think what I am really looking for is a community of support, because sometimes it seems like I am alone fighting the whole world on this topic.
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  #5  
Old Feb 23, '11, 2:34 pm
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Jenniferolg Jenniferolg is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

When I first got married, I found those Scripture passages "offensive" and "out-dated." When I began to study Scripture, read the Catechism and earnestly pray, I realized that they were freeing and perfect for modern couples who wanted to live a long and happy married life together and raise a Godly family. My husband and I have been living in submission to God's will to the best of our ability and could not be happier. Look for women who come from families where the parents are happily married and actively living their faith - there are many in our area. I hope and pray my four daughters will be among them when they prepare for marriage. My oldest son has found a wonderful young lady who wants to live her life that way and he is keeping her!

Blessings,
Jennifer
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  #6  
Old Feb 23, '11, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

First line "Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ."

This is not about telling each other what to do or one person making all the decisions. I think this is where a few people fall down with this scripture. This is not about who gets to be the boss of who.

"For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."


A husband cannot love a wife if he does not respect her, therefore husband and wife should respect each other and love each other. A husband is supposed to love his wife as himself, so first he needs to love himself. Loving yourself (men and women) means you do not do things or make decisions that will hurt you in anyway.

This scripture also calls for trust, husband and wife have to trust each other and themselves in order to be subordinate to each other. Lets face it if I don't really trust you to act in my best interest I am going to question and undermine every decision you make. Also if I don't trust you I am going to try make decisions without you.

When I find the right man and get married, my submission will be me trusting him to come to me before making huge decisions but also for those right this minute decisions that need to be made he will make those decisions with me in mind and it will be best for BOTH of us and our family.

This is just my thoughts on this.
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  #7  
Old Feb 23, '11, 5:52 pm
Willy Jose Willy Jose is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by agapewolf View Post
Understand what it means. Women who resist it most likely don't know what it means either.

"submission" = under the mission

The husband's mission is to love his wife as Christ loved the church.

to love= will the good of the other, which is heaven. Christ died for the church.

His mission to help his wife get to heaven, even if it kills him. A wife is to be "under the mission".
I guess this sums it up in a few words

The family - the basic unit of society - is the Domestic Church where the husband is the spiritual head. This does not mean he lords it over the wife, it means he must assume headship in leading the family towards Christ, in love. Submission is a natural response of the wife to the husband who loves her with his life in Christlike manner. This does not preclude joint discernment of decisions and actions.
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  #8  
Old Feb 23, '11, 6:40 pm
ChiRho ChiRho is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinichiqn View Post
This is not about telling each other what to do or one person making all the decisions. I think this is where a few people fall down with this scripture. This is not about who gets to be the boss of who.
Why isn't it? If men are charged with protection and sacrificing themselves for their wives, why is it unthinkable that women are charged to be submissive and obey their husbands?

although I think calling it "bossing someone around" is a crude way of putting it. Why does it have to be that the person who makes most of the decisions is said to be "bossing someone around", and not caring for them?
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Haydock's Bible commentary on John 15:14: You are my friends.-- A wonderful condescension, says St. Augustine, in our blessed Redeemer, who was God as well as man, to call such poor and sinful creatures, his friends; who, when we have done all we can, and ought, are still but unprofitable servants.

Last edited by ChiRho; Feb 23, '11 at 6:56 pm.
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  #9  
Old Feb 23, '11, 7:51 pm
jwashu jwashu is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneplustwo View Post
Ephesians 5:21-33

Should I seek to live this scripture passage in my marriage? I am not married so I have the freedom to seek a woman who would agree with me on this subject. But wherever I turn when this subject comes up, I face a lot of resistance and it makes me wonder if I am doing something wrong.

Do you have any advice?
Make sure you TRULY understand that passage before start trying to base a marriage off of it before you have even hit the alter.

Too many people, Catholics and Protestants miss out on the most important part... as Christ loved the Church. If your wife is sacrificing for you to allow you to be head of the household hold that means you are called to even greater sacrifice. Being head doesn't mean always getting your way, Christ as the head was the most humble and giving of all... He gave his life for the Church, was humiliated, beaten, scarred, ridiculed etc... being able to carry all of those burdens for your family is what that verse is really talking about.

It works out to be much more equal as each is called to self sacrifice for the other, is that the marriage you are looking for? Because if so then I think you have a good chance at long term happiness.

Joe
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  #10  
Old Feb 24, '11, 12:18 am
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiRho View Post
Why isn't it? If men are charged with protection and sacrificing themselves for their wives, why is it unthinkable that women are charged to be submissive and obey their husbands?

although I think calling it "bossing someone around" is a crude way of putting it. Why does it have to be that the person who makes most of the decisions is said to be "bossing someone around", and not caring for them?

A man is charged to LOVE his wife as Christ loved the Church.
1. This a sacrificial love
2. If you love me you respect me. Respect that I am an adult not a child, and as an adult I should be included in decisions that affect my life.
3. Being submissive does not mean having no opinions or decision making power.
4. Obeying does not mean blindly saying yes to everything my husband says.(Honey, I think we have enough kids, you should get your tubes tied. I don't think so.) I know that is an extreme example.

I will end going back to the first line "Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.". I never talked about "bossing someone around", I talked about what this line does not mean to me, I never even used the term.
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When a woman veils her body in modest clothing, she is not hiding herself from men. On the contrary, she is revealing her dignity to them

Everything is possible to one who has faith.

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  #11  
Old Feb 24, '11, 7:33 am
ChiRho ChiRho is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinichiqn View Post
A man is charged to LOVE his wife as Christ loved the Church.
1. This a sacrificial love
2. If you love me you respect me. Respect that I am an adult not a child, and as an adult I should be included in decisions that affect my life.
3. Being submissive does not mean having no opinions or decision making power.
4. Obeying does not mean blindly saying yes to everything my husband says.(Honey, I think we have enough kids, you should get your tubes tied. I don't think so.) I know that is an extreme example.

I will end going back to the first line "Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.". I never talked about "bossing someone around", I talked about what this line does not mean to me, I never even used the term.
So what are the limits on the man loving his wife?
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Haydock's Bible commentary on John 15:14: You are my friends.-- A wonderful condescension, says St. Augustine, in our blessed Redeemer, who was God as well as man, to call such poor and sinful creatures, his friends; who, when we have done all we can, and ought, are still but unprofitable servants.
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Old Feb 24, '11, 8:11 am
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trinichiqn trinichiqn is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

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Originally Posted by ChiRho View Post
So what are the limits on the man loving his wife?
There are no limits on love, I was just pointing out that love should come first and everything else should come out of that.
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When a woman veils her body in modest clothing, she is not hiding herself from men. On the contrary, she is revealing her dignity to them

Everything is possible to one who has faith.

I am wonderful because God loves me

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  #13  
Old Feb 24, '11, 8:47 am
ChiRho ChiRho is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinichiqn View Post
There are no limits on love, I was just pointing out that love should come first and everything else should come out of that.
My point is that I often see lists of "submission is not x, y, and z" and "what this really means is a, b, and c." However, I rarely see any redefinition of what loving as Christ loved the Church is. So, are there any limitations? How do we make sure that men don't get hurt by a misinterpretation of this passage? (of course this is facetious, but asking this question is logically consistent with claims that the role of the woman is frequently misinterpreted)

People are very eager to interpret submission in light of the 20th and 21st century's opinion of what it means (and what it should not mean), but that doesn't seem to happen with the man's role.
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Haydock's Bible commentary on John 15:14: You are my friends.-- A wonderful condescension, says St. Augustine, in our blessed Redeemer, who was God as well as man, to call such poor and sinful creatures, his friends; who, when we have done all we can, and ought, are still but unprofitable servants.
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Old Feb 24, '11, 10:47 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiRho View Post
My point is that I often see lists of "submission is not x, y, and z" and "what this really means is a, b, and c." However, I rarely see any redefinition of what loving as Christ loved the Church is. So, are there any limitations? How do we make sure that men don't get hurt by a misinterpretation of this passage? (of course this is facetious, but asking this question is logically consistent with claims that the role of the woman is frequently misinterpreted)

People are very eager to interpret submission in light of the 20th and 21st century's opinion of what it means (and what it should not mean), but that doesn't seem to happen with the man's role.
I don't think it is a facetious question at all. I think there are many men married to abusive or wayward wives who have reflected on this passage in profound seriousness.

For instance, if a man is married to a woman who is abusive, does he have to suffer the abuse without limit? Isn't that what Christ is willing to do? Yet the Church recognizes that a man can separate from his wife, if it becomes clear that his spouse refuses to let him live in peace and safety. Some would argue that Christ is endlessly tolerant of our infidelities, yet the Church recognizes adultery as a reason to sever the common conjugal life even while the marriage endures, just as serious sin can lead to excommunication for the person who is and always will be a Catholic. A man has to give himself up to keep his wife pure, but he can't lock her in the house or accomplish this by force. So no, even this passage cannot be just taken at 21st century face value.

Frankly, I think the reason the passage about men is not dissected so much is that it is more difficult for a wife to use it to unfairly manipulate her husband and abuse her authority within the marriage. That isn't to say it cannot be misused, though, and when it is, then a discussion like this is in order, absolutely.
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Old Feb 24, '11, 11:16 am
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Default Re: Ephesians 5 on Marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiRho View Post
My point is that I often see lists of "submission is not x, y, and z" and "what this really means is a, b, and c." However, I rarely see any redefinition of what loving as Christ loved the Church is. So, are there any limitations? How do we make sure that men don't get hurt by a misinterpretation of this passage? (of course this is facetious, but asking this question is logically consistent with claims that the role of the woman is frequently misinterpreted)

People are very eager to interpret submission in light of the 20th and 21st century's opinion of what it means (and what it should not mean), but that doesn't seem to happen with the man's role.
I'm not sure anyone can give you anything but their interpretation.

Christ loved us so much that He died for us. Are you ready to sacrifice yourself for your wife? Put her above yourself? Her happiness, her needs? Put yourself last?

As I said in my first post trust is very important, where feelings and emotions are involved it is difficult not to get hurt 100% of the time but with trust and love it is usually mitigated or worth it. I don't think a wife being submissive to her husband is about allowing or letting him make unilateral decisions without her it is unfair to both parties and resentment can build. That is a sure-fire way to get hurt.
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Everything is possible to one who has faith.

I am wonderful because God loves me

How Much Is My Life Worth? A Lot Jesus Died To Save It
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