I'm agnostic and she is catholic

[embear]

I am in a similar position as you, but I am the Catholic one. I've been in a relationship with someone who was raised Protestant but is not a practicing Christian. I'd say he believes in God, and has some sense of "Christian morality", but other than that he cannot relate to me at all on matters of faith. I did not think it would be a problem for us to have a relationship, as he is open to my faith and said he would like to raise his children in the Church (for the same reasons that you would), but it has become an issue. Marriage is definitely something we have been considering, but my faith being important to me, I cannot help but feel I would be doing a disservice to myself by marrying a non-Catholic. I feel as though I am at odds with the society I live in (which promotes things like selfishness, abortion, materialism, wealth, pride ect) whereas he seems content to be surrounded by such things. To me he is blind in a sense. He cannot relate to my world view. He cannot help me grow in my faith. I cannot look to him as my spiritual leader. He cannot help me avoid temptation. Men have a certain gender role to fulfill in Catholic marriage. Your role is more than just being her partner or the father of her children. It is your duty to lead her closer to God, to preserve her soul from sin. I know for me, that is what I desire most in a husband. As an agnostic, you cannot fulfill that role.

I agree with the others, see a priest. If he isn't helpful, see another. You should also be 100% honest with her; do not deceive her as a previous poster suggested. If you have honestly made an effort to learn what you can about her faith, but cannot truly commit, then she would be taking a risk marrying you. Your struggle is one I can empathize with as it is what I am going through. I love my boyfriend sincerely, but I do not think I will be able to marry him unless he becomes Catholic. It is truly heartbreaking. Seeing what my mom went through (my parents: Catholic mom, agnostic dad) made me realize it is not a smart move, for in the majority of cases, it only serves to bring the Catholic further from God. And a true Catholic far from God is tormented.

[embear]

Originally Posted by freethinker83

Agreed. My fiancee and I who are both Atheists briefly considered getting married in my grandmother's church. Most people in my family have been married there, and it would have made a lot of people happy. In the end I decided that I didn't want to start my marriage on a lie. I mean a lie in the sense of me declaring a belief in God when I don't; I'm not calling anyone a liar!

To the OP: An ultimatum like that sounds dangerous to me. It's okay for you to discuss important issues, but once she tries to force you to accept her view (or if you do the same to her) there is a problem. If my fiancee and I wanted to vote differently on an issue in an election I may debate her, but I would NEVER issue her an ultimatum. Not cool.

This is a bit more important to the success of a marriage than trivial things like political opinions

[Joseph L Varga]

The official position of the CC is this: the Catholic party (agnosticcathgf, in this case) must promise that she will try to do her best to raise the children Catholic. The non-Catholic party (theagnosticcath) should be informed of this fact - that the other party made a promise to raise the children Catholic. The non-Catholic party doesn't need to promise to cooperate with the other party's effort, but simply should be aware, and must not hinder the Catholic spouse's efforts to raise the children Catholic. Before the Bishop gives permission that a Catholic may marry a non-Catholic, the Church needs to know whether there is reasonable expectation that the non-Catholic party won't indeed be opposed to the Catholic faith, and won't try to interfere and hinder the other spouse's efforts to raise the children Catholic.

These are the minimum requirements of the Catholic Church, that should be met in a mixed marriage (marriage of Catholic with non-Catholic).

If the minimum requirements are met, the two parties dating each other may discern that it is worth to get married to each other despite their differences in faith, or on the contrary, that it is better for them to break up and not to marry each other, in view of the friction and conflicts expected in such a mixed marriage in which the two spouses do not hold the same faith. Whether to marry or not, in such a case, is ultimately left to the dating couple's prudential judgment. The Church does not prohibit a mixed marriage, but cautions that the differences in faith will cause real difficulties between the spouses.

Agnosticcathgf, I gather from your posts that you didn't mean your words as an ultimatum to your bf as in "convert or else!", but rather as an honest and realistic assessment that your faith is extremely important to you, and that you regard your differences in faith as a problem. And I commend both of you, for facing this obstacle and admitting that you have a problem, here. Ultimately, the two of you will have a hefty decision to make: to marry each other, or to part your ways. In fact, as I said, the Church leaves this decision up to you.

continued...

[Joseph L Varga]

...continued

In regard to converting someone, that's indeed beyond our human power. I think the Bible says something to the effect that we sow the seeds, but it's the Lord who gives the nurturing rain, and ultimately, the yield of crops. We as Catholics can share the information that led us to believe in God, in Jesus Christ, and in the Catholic Church as the organization that Jesus himself started and told us to listen to it and be part of it, we can discuss our faith with inquirers, but that's where our powers end. We can't really convert other people, against their will.

Not even St. Francis of Assisi was able to convert the Sultan of the Muslim army. St. Francis, with another companion, set out to meet the Sultan. As they were walking towards the Muslim army, they attacked and started to beat the two friars. Now, St. Francis was quite famous for his humility, and how he regarded himself worthy of every punishment and humiliation, and in fact welcomed those as an occasion to do penance for his sins. So, the Muslim soldiers taunted and beat up the two friars, who never defended themselves. Finally, they dragged them into their camp, and in front of the Sultan. There, the Poverello (Little Poor Man, as many people affectionately called St. Francis) issued his invitation to the Sultan: he called on him to become a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ. Gradually, as time passed, the Muslim soldiers, and the Sultan himself, started to see that their two prisoners were special. After some time, they were released from their cells and from their shackles, and the Sultan invited them to stay as his personal guests.

The Sultan himself came to greatly respect and admire the Poverello. Which is not unprecedented at all - St. Francis, the little man, un-handsome, with his shabby clothes, had an irresistible appeal and deeply touched practically everyone he came into contact with.

After some time, the Sultan admitted that he would be glad to become a follower of Jesus Christ, if not for one thing: his own people, back at home, will regard him as a traitor who crossed over to the Christian side. He welcomed and begged St. Francis and his companion to continue to stay with him, as his guest, but he couldn't bring himself to ask for baptism, and become a Christian, for the mentioned reason. Finally, with an aching heart, St. Francis and his companion bid farewell to the Sultan, and returned to Italy. They had more work to do, people to preach the Gospel to, sick people to take care of, and they understood, if and when the Sultan would convert, that was out of their hands. That was up to God's grace, and the Sultan's decision to make.

St. Francis of Assisi is one of the greatest mystics and miracle-workers of all time. Jesus Christ, Holy Mary, and Angels appeared many, many times to him. He conversed with the supernatural world as we would with our own families. His own friar-brothers would spy on him, more than once, while he was retreated in prayer, and saw him regularly floating (levitating) up at the level of the top of the pine trees, while he was deeply immersed in prayer. On other occasion, he would preach to the birds about God, and a big flock of various kinds of birds gathered around him, as if listening to his sermon. Also, when the citizens of Gubio were threatened by a man-eating woolf that already attacked and consumed several travelers, St. Francis came to the neighborhood, he met and rebuked the woolf, and the woolf suddenly changed its behavior. It became totally tame, and for the remaining years of its life, it never attacked anyone. After meeting St. Francis, it took the habit of wandering the streets of Gubio, begging for food when it was hungry. And the people of Gubio fed the woolf, and never harrassed it, and they even cried when the woolf, so miraculously tamed by the Poverello, passed away some two years later.

So great was the sanctity of St. Francis of Assisi, so great were the miracles that he performed during his life, and so great the favors he received from Heaven, that he saw and talked to Jesus Christ himself, to Our Lady, and to the heavenly Hosts, not once, but many times. And yet, not even St. Francis was able to convert the Sultan. Conversion is a mysterious thing, and beyond our control. We can and we should pray for our friends, who do not believe in God or in the truth of the Catholic Church, but ultimately, we must leave it up to them, and to God's mercy, if and when they will convert to Christianity and to Catholicism.

[yankees6767]

Hello,
I was reading your post and I think I should respond considering I am in a strikingly similar situation except that it is the other way around. I am the one who has gone through the conversion and my girlfriend (who is Catholic by tradition but considers herself "not faithful") is the one taken by surprise. One of the issues we had was that she was accepting things without truly accepting them. Like you, she knew that the "Catholic lifestyle" is very good and righteous and virtuous, BUT she fears what being Catholic entails.
Long story short, we recently decided to take a break to figure things out. The reason the break was initiated was because we started to talk about the future. I want to practice NFP and she wants to use contraceptives. We did a lot of research and discussion and decided it was best to research these things on our own. (This is also something you should probably think about if you are willing to stay with her) I gave her an ultimatum but not in the same way your girlfriend gave you. I didn't ask her to BE Catholic, but i asked her to accept the fact that I am going to remain faithful in my relationship, and there is no compromise for this. I don't think its fair for her to give you an ultimatum that you MUST believe in the Catholic faith, but I do think that it would be fair of her to tell you there is no compromise when it comes to issues of her being faithful to God (i know I am seeming biased here but I think this is how any faithful Catholic would feel about a relationship like this.) I can understand why she would think it is difficult to remain faithful with a non Catholic boyfriend, but I also think there are ways to work things out.... so long as you are willing to accept her faith in your relationship and family (which it sounds like you are).

Therefore, my advice would be to tell her that you are willing to accept her faith in your relationship, BUT also tell her to give you time and space to develop your own relationship with God.

I think it is awesome that your interest has been sparked because of her, and don't let this scare you. God works in so many ways. Just because you opened your eyes to the Church because of her doesn't mean that you will love God because of her.

I know exactly what you mean when you say Church scares you. i always had an interest in knowing more about God but i felt that because everyone was so much more advanced than me, i was an outcast. I used to hate going to Mass when I was young because everyone would go up to receive Communion and I felt so strange staying in my seat. (I now realize it is common for people to not receive Communion, either because they are not Catholic or are currently in a state of sin.)
After you go a few times you will start to pick up on traditions. (like when to stand or sit or kneel) As far as the people praying to God when you walk in, here is my suggestion.... You don't need to memorize a prayer or anything. When you walk in, kneel at the pew, and simply talk to God. Say to Him, "God, I don't know if you are here. But I am praying to you, because if you are here, I know that you can hear me. If you can hear me, please guide me so that I may get to know you better. Please give me the strength and grace I need to not feel alone and to openly ask questions to those who can answer me. Please work through my girlfriend and through those in my community to fulfill my thirst to get to know you better.".... or something along these lines.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel the need to write as much as I can since I am on the other side of your situation. Just so you know, I got a text from my girlfriend the other day asking for the email of the nun that helped me through my conversion. I figured that I will let her develop her relationship with God on her own, and as of now, the Holy Spirit seems to be guiding her in the right direction. And I think you should tell your girlfriend the same thing. Tell her that you are willing to accept her faith in your relationship because you love her and because your willing to hold on to her with every thing you have, BUT that your must develop your own relationship with God without her pressure. I think this would be very fair to the both of you. God Bless you and I will hold both of you in my prayers.

[theagnosticcath]

[/quote]
One of the issues we had was that she was accepting things without truly accepting them. Like you, she knew that the "Catholic lifestyle" is very good and righteous and virtuous, BUT she fears what being Catholic entails.[/quote]

im not to sure if i fear what "being a catholic" entails because i truly have no idea, its more like of being afraid of the dark when you are a child, you are only scared of it as you have no idea whats there, whats in front of you and if you venture into it you have no idea what you will find


[/quote]
Long story short, we recently decided to take a break to figure things out. The reason the break was initiated was because we started to talk about the future. I want to practice NFP and she wants to use contraceptives. We did a lot of research and discussion and decided it was best to research these things on our own. (This is also something you should probably think about if you are willing to stay with her) [/quote]

this is just me saying this and it's only my opinion but if you are talking about the future together shouldn't you stay together? I know gods work in ways we cant fully understand and if it's truly what both of you want (to be together) then she'll be guided back to you but in the same instance i'd try and work through that, talk to a preist together and i dont think i could ever let my other half go, in a relation to an earlier post no its not possesive in its intentions its merely because i couldn't even think of seeing her, hearing her everyday and i know she feels the same way. I know birth control is a no no within the catholic faith as Catholic teaching holds that to be fully consistent with God's plan, sexuality should occur only inside marriage and should be open to new life. Inside a Marriage I prodominently agree and of course open to new life but at the same time although i can't wait to have children and raise a family i dont think i could cope with 5 or so children and although im open to practicing NFP when the subject comes up, the fact of the matter is, i simply do not trust the human body full stop and i would have to raise the issue of birth control at some point.
i know you said have had healthy debate over this and i applaud you for not comprimising on your faith but at the same time as i'm agnostic (at the moment) to think of her? how many children would she want? what happens when she does not want more children? will birth control be acceptable then and why? would you like to have another child at 50 or so? although a blessing it would be an immense strain and trying to raise the child when you are both thinking of retirement and your 'golden years'
i know these are mostly negative points and i am sorry but as an agnostic i have been used to seeing both sides of the argument and sitting on the fence as it were not willing to agree with the other and in no way am i trying to attack your faith, i want to reach the point you have one day if i can convert, if i want to convert but there are still issues i haven't settled on and probably wont settle on for a long time

Thankyou for having me in your prayers, I will be praying that you to can work through this situation with your other half

Kind Regards and God Bless

[agnosticcathgf]

Originally Posted by theagnosticcath

its merely because i couldn't even think of seeing her, hearing her everyday and i know she feels the same way. I know birth control is a no no within the catholic faith as Catholic teaching holds that to be fully consistent with God's plan, sexuality should occur only inside marriage and should be open to new life.

1. I think you meant to say "I couldn't even think of NOT seeing her....."

2. *Putting on my Biologist's hat* - Humans are one of the most INFERTILE animals ever. In comparison to other animals it is almost impossible for us to get pregnant. The NFP system is not just religiously supported but it is scientifically proven as well. Nothing is 100% effective except abstinence and the human body is very smart (after all, look who designed it….) and there are times when it is MORE likely for one to get pregnant and conversely, times when it is virtually impossible to get pregnant. There are also so many factors that determine whether a pregnancy will happen. I don’t think it’s something that really needs to be questioned. Many people have followed it (my parents included) and there are many secular people who also follow it. As I said before, nothing is 100% effective and with practise and learning more about it then I’m sure we’ll be fine. Also, in reference to your comment “would you like to have another child at 50 or so? although a blessing it would be an immense strain and trying to raise the child when you are both thinking of retirement and your 'golden years'” – God has already thought of this. Menopause. After a certain age a woman stops releasing eggs. In fact, she is born with a certain number of eggs and eventually “runs” out (there’s truth to the “ticking biological clock”).

3. How about we worry about our relationship first, marriage second, having kids fourth and then we can worry about NOT having kids

[agnosticcathgf]

Originally Posted by agnosticcathgf

3. How about we worry about our relationship first, marriage second, having kids fourth and then we can worry about NOT having kids

and obviously thirdly would be working on my counting skills.....

[crazzeto]

Originally Posted by theagnosticcath

I need help!!
My other half has recently re-affirmed her faith and is truly working towards getting back to where she used to be within catholicism many years ago.
we were having pre-maratial sex and now thats stopped, something by the way that although i do find hard completely support her on and have recently started to understand why this is a HUGE thing within the religion but this is not the problem, far from it.

I've started to attend church on the off occasion, trying to go to mass (which i still can't sit through because it is to intense for me at the moment and scares me a little bit) and i have been reading books about catholicism, the mass and other things, i have also started to attend bible readings (or studies) as a sort of ground floor understanding of the bible and why the bible is the word of god not man (something that i didn't quite grasp until someone explained it to me).
We recently got into a discussion about children and she can't understand why although i believe that there is a higher power, i still might not convert to catholicism.
i dont want to convert to catholicism just to please her or just for marraige, i'd rather if i do in future convert do it on my own terms and because i have been brought round to beleive in the teachings and the word of god, not just because she wants me to but because i want to.
I want my children to be raised catholic as i see nothing wrong with it and i do truly believe that being brought up catholic well benifit their lifes immensly in everything that they do, that the teachings of god and not just their parents, will show them a better life than i had when i was younger
For 24 years i have lived without the word of god and although yes because of it, ive made mistakes, i've learned from my mistakes and it will be good teaching for my children, the right from the wrong because i certainly have done alot of the wrong in my life. I feel i could be a guide if the children sway from the faith

she has issued me with an ultimatum of you acknowledge that Jesus = God or we are through

I do not know what to do, i love her more than anything else in the world and i am trying incredibly hard to grasp everything she believes but at the same time its hard and i do not want to be forced into a belief that i do not understand

please help

Well, first I would like to affirm and say how much I appriciate the approch you are taking to the situation as much as it hurts you, and the rather adult view you hold. First let me say this, yes do not ever convert to the faith just for your wife. If you do so ever, it must be for you, otherwise you might fall. I do however appreiciate that you have taken the oppertunity to try and learn the faith, I do pray that perhaps this can be an imputous for you to heed the calling of the Holy Spirit we all receive to Christ's Church.

With regard to premarital sex, you are correct. It is huge if the faith, and I'm glad your letting your wife "win that one". It is important for your wifes spiritual growth, continuing to force premaritial sex will wound her in ways you can't possibly comprehend.

With regards to children, the real problem is this. Mother and father must be united fully and truely, both parents together are a representation of Triune God here on earth, and we are the first means by which our Children can learn about God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So you might be tempted to say "yeah, ok if they want to be raised with that tradition fine whatever, it's no different than a jewish tradition, or buddest tradition....". And there in lies the problem, it is different, completely, fundamentally substantially different. You can not take a view of "one is as good as the next" when raising your children, because the real lesson they will learn is that if one is as good as the next, then they're all invalid. They will break with the faith, even if you never activily encourage them too.

So I hope you can understand how big a problem this is. So what's the solution? Well I can't tell you that. All I can tell you is that I will pray for you, and your sweet heart.

With regard to your attempts to grasp the faith, have you tried praying? For starters I would recommend the Lords prayer, then the Hail Mary. You will find them helpful. If you get comfortable with that, my favorite is the Rosary, it is this prayer that sealed my conversion to Christ.

I would also recommend watching the following three films, Passion of the Christ and Jesus Christ: Super Star, Nativity Story.

God bless,

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by agnosticcathgf

and obviously thirdly would be working on my counting skills.....

Yeah I was wondering where #3 went...

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by theagnosticcath

I know birth control is a no no within the catholic faith as Catholic teaching holds that to be fully consistent with God's plan, sexuality should occur only inside marriage and should be open to new life. Inside a Marriage I prodominently agree and of course open to new life but at the same time although i can't wait to have children and raise a family i dont think i could cope with 5 or so children and although im open to practicing NFP when the subject comes up, the fact of the matter is, i simply do not trust the human body full stop and i would have to raise the issue of birth control at some point.
i know you said have had healthy debate over this and i applaud you for not comprimising on your faith but at the same time as i'm agnostic (at the moment) to think of her? how many children would she want? what happens when she does not want more children? will birth control be acceptable then and why? would you like to have another child at 50 or so? although a blessing it would be an immense strain and trying to raise the child when you are both thinking of retirement and your 'golden years'

Please do not discount abstinance as a mehtod for spacing children. Not complete necessarily, but certainly kept firmly within the bounds of NPF techniques...

Consider your current situation. You were sexually active and now you are not. Yet your love for your Dear Lady has not diminished. Nor has your desire to besire to be near her, and to be the best you can be for her. And I dare venture to guess that your desire for her has not lessened...you simply have placed it under greater control - Out of Love for her.

This same Love can be applied to the marriage. Abstaining from intercourse need not lessen intimacy or desire or even satisfaction. In fact it can enhance these things and make the less frequent encounters even more full, more beautiful and special.

Peace
James

[mdrummer5]

Originally Posted by agnosticcathgf

and obviously thirdly would be working on my counting skills.....

LOL hey... we all make mistakes like this from time to time.

I read through some (not all) of the thread and can tell you that I was in a somewhat similar situation as you a couple months ago. You can read the thread in the link below if you want the full story.

The biggest difference is that she never gave me an ultimatum I don't agree your girlfriend having done so but can respect her desire to want to be with a Catholic. Putting that kind of pressure on someone is wrong, in other words... she should've worded it differently. I'm quite thankful that my girlfrend would've been perfectly fine with me staying "the way I was" for if it weren't for that I would've never ended up where I am now.

As far as Mass, it can be quite overwhelming if you're not used to it so I understand your issue there, I'd suggest to continue going, you'll eventually find that you're not only comfortable but if you open up your heart to God you'll start to feel better when you go. It might also help to start talking to God out loud if it helps, yes it may seem crazy if you're not in the habit of doing so... but eventually you'll realize He IS listening. I also get what you're saying about wanting to do it on your own terms if you decide to convert but you can't do that unless you talk to Him, you need to open yourself up to Him if you really want it to happen.


I really hope this helps and wish you the best of luck.

[theagnosticcath]

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=523931

WOW thats a thread and a half

[agnosticcathgf]

Originally Posted by mdrummer5

The biggest difference is that she never gave me an ultimatum I don't agree your girlfriend having done so but can respect her desire to want to be with a Catholic. Putting that kind of pressure on someone is wrong, in other words... she should've worded it differently. I'm quite thankful that my girlfrend would've been perfectly fine with me staying "the way I was" for if it weren't for that I would've never ended up where I am now.

.

I agree: I didn't mean for it to come across as an ultimatum and should have chosen my words more carefully. I didn't want either of us to "waste our time" with each other under the assumption that we would get married when there would be a huge obstacle in raising our family. Honesty is vital in a relationship and theagnosticcath and I are working to be completely honest with each other and that's what I was trying to be, although (he will attest to this!) I need to think before and take more time with what I am actually trying to say rather than just the verbal diarrhoea that happens most of the time for me!

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by agnosticcathgf

I agree: I didn't mean for it to come across as an ultimatum and should have chosen my words more carefully. I didn't want either of us to "waste our time" with each other under the assumption that we would get married when there would be a huge obstacle in raising our family. Honesty is vital in a relationship and theagnosticcath and I are working to be completely honest with each other and that's what I was trying to be, although (he will attest to this!) I need to think before and take more time with what I am actually trying to say rather than just the verbal diarrhoea that happens most of the time for me!

This is SO true for most all of us.

Many years ago, I was in a turbulent and troubled marriage. We would argue horribly. We finally started keeping Journals with the proviso that we were allowed to read each others journal. We were NOT allowed to use the journals in arguments but as ways of expressing our feelings more fully and clearly...
It worked for some time and got us over some tough points...Unfortunately they could not fix what was never right in the first place....

That said, using this thread, or letters or... to communicate more clearly can be a big help. One can formulate their thoughts and write them down. The other cannot interupt you in mid-sentence. And when read, the reader is obliged to read through the whole thing uninterupted before commenting....
These can be great helps in clear communication.

Peace
James