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  #1  
Old Mar 4, '11, 6:40 pm
FaithJoy FaithJoy is offline
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Default Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Or is it? I would like to know where in the Qur'an does it state that Jerusalem is a Holy site. Not only that, but where in the Quran does it state that the Temple Mount is claimed to belong to Islam? From what I understand this is fairly a very recent claim. From what I understand,there are no Islamic writings preceding the 1930's to claim the Temple Mount as holy to Islam. In 632 c.e.,Muhammad's death, there were no mosques in Jerusalem. At that time, it was a Christian occupied city.
Quote:
2) The Islamic claim to Jerusalem is false - There were no mosques in Jerusalem in 632 c.e. at the death of Muhammad... Jerusalem was [then] a Christian-occupied city
‒by Dr. Manfred R. Lehmann, writer for the Algemeiner Journal. Excerpts of the article originally published in the Algemeiner Journal, August 19, 1994‒
The muslim "claim" to Jerusalem is allegedly based on what is written in the koran, which although does not mention Jerusalem even once, nevertheless talks of the "furthest mosque" (in Sura 17:1): «Glory be unto Allah who did take his servant for a journey at night from the sacred mosque to the furthest mosque». But is there any foundation to the muslim argument that this "furthest mosque" (al-masujidi al-aqsa) refers to what is today called the Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem? The answer is, NO!
from http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm ( start at "II - Myths and facts about Jerusalem and Temple Mount")
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  #2  
Old Mar 4, '11, 7:27 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Mohammed never claimed Jerusalem for Islam.

It was the Umayyids, Syrian Muslims, known for creating stories to take possession. The time Mohammed was supposed to go to the farthest mosque, it was out to Medina or 10 miles from it.

The altar of Abraham was in the wilderness...Jerusalem was beginning in the time of Abraham, and was not a wilderness. Scholars think the place Abraham went to sacrifice his son was near Nablus.

If Mohammed were have to rose to heaven at the time the later writers claimed, he would have rose up next to the great Byzantine Christian Church, St. Mary's of Justinian....that practically went from south to north of the entire city...connected by a corridor and ending at the Gates of Damascus.

The pre-Islamic warriors destroyed part of the great church; parts of it were still in use in 804-808 AD, a documented talk given there by a priest. It was completely destroyed by the Umayyids shortly after.
  #3  
Old Mar 4, '11, 7:38 pm
Sister Amy Sister Amy is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Muhammad was miraculously taken there about 10 years into his prophethood:

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing. 17:1

Masjid al-Aqsa is the "mosque" in Jerusalem. But "mosque" implies a different meaning than we find in the Qur'an. The word masjid, which is usually translated as "mosque" comes from the root س ج د which refers to prostrating. The word is an اسم ظرف or noun of location, and it literally means the place where one prostrates.

It does not mean a building. In fact, according to an authentic hadith, the entire earth is a masjid. "I have been granted five things which were not granted to any other prophet before me: (one of them) The whole earth has been made a Masjid, and pure for me, so whenever the time of prayer comes for anyone of you, he should pray wherever he is."

There's also a hadith, which is authentic, indicating that prayers in certain mosques are better/more rewarded than others. First among them is the Masjid al-Haram, in Makkah. Second is the Masjid an-Nabawi, in Madinah. And third is praying at Bayt al-Maqdis--Jerusalem.

Eventually the Muslims did take Jersualem and build a mosque there, but it was holy before that because it was a place of worship to the one true God before that.

So when the Qur'an mentions Masjid Al-Aqsa it's not actually referring to a "mosque" or a building at all. It was referring in the general sense to a "place of prostration." Why was it called that? Because the previous "Muslims" used to "prostrate" there, which in particular refers to the Children of Israel.
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  #4  
Old Mar 4, '11, 8:08 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Mohammed was supposed to have gone in a dream to the mosque at the farthest point....and during the time he was alleged to have had the dream it was about at an earlier point in his life. Historians actually point to Medina or a town 10 miles from it.

Oh, the challenge of history....

One document says he actually saw Jerusalem but had no interest in it.

One member of the of the Umayyids also claimed that a rock there in Jerusalem was that of Abraham's. One of Mohammed's nephew expressed great disdain for the made up story to make land claims, a common practice of the Umayyids...

ST. Mary Major of Justinian was the major landmark of Jerusalem, erected in November, 21, 543 AD. It was a great and most magnificent church named after the Blessed Mother Mary, and in the sacred city of Christ's final life. The church was desecrated and parts of it were converted into horse stables and watering...

There is alot of factual history surrounding Jerusalem, and it has been overrun many times in its history. St. Mary's was still in use by Christians, although parts of it. National Geographic had an article with photos and map.

Finally, in the latter part of the late 800's going into the 900's, the common Muslim practice of building a conquest mosque over a former church was finally accomplished. Sad....makes me think of the St. Sophia's....much bloodshed there to overtake Constantinople.....

But I hear the Muslims there are very kind to all people....God bless them....

Still, it is not good to destroy people's places of worship and to make claims that do not agree with the people living there for many years.

If people would only study history and recognize the same dignity and rights we could have peace.
  #5  
Old Mar 4, '11, 8:47 pm
bkayw bkayw is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

One more religious/political group that region has seen over the thousands of years, vying for power, dominance and control of Jerusalem. What better way than "having a dream" and then building a victory temple directly over the Holy of Holies.
  #6  
Old Mar 4, '11, 8:57 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Amy View Post
Muhammad was miraculously taken there about 10 years into his prophethood:

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing. 17:1

Masjid al-Aqsa is the "mosque" in Jerusalem. But "mosque" implies a different meaning than we find in the Qur'an. The word masjid, which is usually translated as "mosque" comes from the root س ج د which refers to prostrating. The word is an اسم ظرف or noun of location, and it literally means the place where one prostrates.

It does not mean a building. In fact, according to an authentic hadith, the entire earth is a masjid. "I have been granted five things which were not granted to any other prophet before me: (one of them) The whole earth has been made a Masjid, and pure for me, so whenever the time of prayer comes for anyone of you, he should pray wherever he is."

There's also a hadith, which is authentic, indicating that prayers in certain mosques are better/more rewarded than others. First among them is the Masjid al-Haram, in Makkah. Second is the Masjid an-Nabawi, in Madinah. And third is praying at Bayt al-Maqdis--Jerusalem.

Eventually the Muslims did take Jersualem and build a mosque there, but it was holy before that because it was a place of worship to the one true God before that.

So when the Qur'an mentions Masjid Al-Aqsa it's not actually referring to a "mosque" or a building at all. It was referring in the general sense to a "place of prostration." Why was it called that? Because the previous "Muslims" used to "prostrate" there, which in particular refers to the Children of Israel.
That is very interesting.
The whole earth has been made a Masjid
It sounds like the Catholic Christian doctrine of all things being created "Good" by God. "The heavens proclaim the glory of God" so to speak.

Quote:
Because the previous "Muslims" used to "prostrate" there, which in particular refers to the Children of Israel.
Can you clarify your statement about the "Children of Israel" and the Previous Muslims" or provide further information?


-Tim-
  #7  
Old Mar 4, '11, 11:10 pm
Sister Amy Sister Amy is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathleenGee View Post
Mohammed was supposed to have gone in a dream to the mosque at the farthest point....and during the time he was alleged to have had the dream it was about at an earlier point in his life. Historians actually point to Medina or a town 10 miles from it.

Oh, the challenge of history....

One document says he actually saw Jerusalem but had no interest in it.
No, it wasn't a dream, it was real. He was even able to give vivid descriptions which, according to his enemies, matched reality, though he had never been there before that in person.

It's called the Night Journey, and it's part of standard Islamic creed that the Journey was real, not a dream, and it was definitely Jerusalem.
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  #8  
Old Mar 4, '11, 11:15 pm
Sister Amy Sister Amy is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
That is very interesting.
The whole earth has been made a Masjid
It sounds like the Catholic Christian doctrine of all things being created "Good" by God. "The heavens proclaim the glory of God" so to speak.



Can you clarify your statement about the "Children of Israel" and the Previous Muslims" or provide further information?


-Tim-
Sure. What Muslims believe and what is stated in the Qur'an is that all the prophets have had the same deen--religion or way of life, even if they had different laws. So Muslims believe God sent all His Prophets (including Noah and Abraham and Moses and Aaron and David and John and Jesus and Muhammad too) with the same basic message, which is essentially the message of Islam. Worship God exclusively, submit to His will, obey Him, live righteously and repent of sins.

So anyone following that message would be called a Muslim--a term in the Qur'an used not just for people following Muhammad, but for people following other Prophets and Messengers too.

So anyone who followed Moses, believed him a prophet and obeyed Him to worship God, would be called a Muslim. So at that time, the Children of Israel were Muslims. Similarly, the people who adopted the message of Jesus (during his lifetime) to worship God, they're considered Muslims as well.
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  #9  
Old Mar 4, '11, 11:46 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Amy View Post
Sure. What Muslims believe and what is stated in the Qur'an is that all the prophets have had the same deen--religion or way of life, even if they had different laws. So Muslims believe God sent all His Prophets (including Noah and Abraham and Moses and Aaron and David and John and Jesus and Muhammad too) with the same basic message, which is essentially the message of Islam. Worship God exclusively, submit to His will, obey Him, live righteously and repent of sins.

So anyone following that message would be called a Muslim--a term in the Qur'an used not just for people following Muhammad, but for people following other Prophets and Messengers too.

So anyone who followed Moses, believed him a prophet and obeyed Him to worship God, would be called a Muslim. So at that time, the Children of Israel were Muslims. Similarly, the people who adopted the message of Jesus (during his lifetime) to worship God, they're considered Muslims as well.
Hi!

I need more clarification about what it means to adopt the message of Jesus, and why there was doubt about the authenticity of the christian bible in the eyes of Muhammad.
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  #10  
Old Mar 5, '11, 1:22 am
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Sam_777 Sam_777 is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

There is no direct reference for the city or the actually name "Jerusalem" (Arabic:القدس) in Quran, because that exact naming came later on, for the Arabs it was known as (بيت المقدس) (English: The Sacred House), again this name also has no reference in Quran, BUT what is referenced in (Quran 17:1) is "Alaqsa Mosque" which some English Qurans have translated it as "Farthest Mosque".

However, Jerusalem hosts two mosques for Muslims, "The Dome of the Rock" and "Alaqsa Mosque", as shown in this photo:


We should also keep in mind when Muhammed claimed that he was ascended to heaven to meet GOD from that mosque, ACTUALLY there was no Islamic mosque in that area because simply Islam had not reached Jerusalem at that time, what actually was there is "The church of the Blessed Virgin":
"Justinian I (527-565) also added to the beauty of the city by many splendid buildings. Of these the most famous was a great basilica dedicated to the Blessed Virgin with a house for pilgrims attached. It stood in the middle of the city, but has now completely disappeared. He also built another great church of the Blessed Virgin at the southern end of the old Temple area (now the Al-aqsa Mosque)."
Source.
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  #11  
Old Mar 5, '11, 2:11 am
JeanMichel JeanMichel is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_777 View Post
There is no direct reference for the city or the actually name "Jerusalem" (Arabic:القدس) in Quran, because that exact naming came later on, for the Arabs it was known as (بيت المقدس) (English: The Sacred House), again this name also has no reference in Quran, BUT what is referenced in (Quran 17:1) is "Alaqsa Mosque" which some English Qurans have translated it as "Farthest Mosque".

However, Jerusalem hosts two mosques for Muslims, "The Dome of the Rock" and "Alaqsa Mosque", as shown in this photo:


We should also keep in mind when Muhammed claimed that he was ascended to heaven to meet GOD from that mosque, ACTUALLY there was no Islamic mosque in that area because simply Islam had not reached Jerusalem at that time, what actually was there is "The church of the Blessed Virgin":
"Justinian I (527-565) also added to the beauty of the city by many splendid buildings. Of these the most famous was a great basilica dedicated to the Blessed Virgin with a house for pilgrims attached. It stood in the middle of the city, but has now completely disappeared. He also built another great church of the Blessed Virgin at the southern end of the old Temple area (now the Al-aqsa Mosque)."
Source.
Sam, I guess it is more properly said that the original buildling there was Solomon's temple, then Zorobabel's temple, then King Herod's Temple, upon which later was built, the great church of the Blessed Virgin, and then later was built the Muslim Mosque. Let us be careful of history; she can be a two edged sword. All people, Christians and Muslims included, like a "victory" building as stated above by another contributor.

Another interesting topic is what the future will bring to us. I think the story of this mount is not finished.
  #12  
Old Mar 5, '11, 4:46 am
FaithJoy FaithJoy is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanMichel View Post
Sam, I guess it is more properly said that the original buildling there was Solomon's temple, then Zorobabel's temple, then King Herod's Temple, upon which later was built, the great church of the Blessed Virgin, and then later was built the Muslim Mosque. Let us be careful of history; she can be a two edged sword. All people, Christians and Muslims included, like a "victory" building as stated above by another contributor.

Another interesting topic is what the future will bring to us. I think the story of this mount is not finished.
Not every group you mentioned would proclaim that they are the victors over the Jewish people. Church of the Blessed Virgin has never been a war victory church.Christians wouldn't say that war or suppression of the Jewish people is valid to Christian history. Muslim mosques ,on the other hand, are traditionally built over war/terrorist victories. Any doubts? What are they trying to do in NYC from 911.
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  #13  
Old Mar 5, '11, 5:16 am
FaithJoy FaithJoy is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Quote:
Eventually the Muslims did take Jersualem and build a mosque there, but it was holy before that because it was a place of worship to the one true God before that.
Just like they tried to "take" NYC on 911? I reject this belief Muslims see the whole world as a mosque. I reject the claim the whole world belongs their faith.
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  #14  
Old Mar 5, '11, 7:09 am
hamba2han hamba2han is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

Jews are very likely praying at the retaining wall of Fort Antonia, the fortress that was used by the Roman soldiers who destroyed their Temple some 2,000 years ago.

Have a look at:

http://www.biblediscoveries.com/content/view/22/38/

http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectur...ailingwall.htm

For Jews to continue believing that the Haram al-Sharif is the site of the Temple Mount, then the archeological evidence uncovered so far needs to support this view.

However, the fact of the matter is that after 40 years of the most extensive archeological excavations at the site by Israeli scientists using the most modern and sophisticated intruments available, all of these excavations have failed to turn up any tangible evidence whatsoever that there was ever an ancient Jewish temple there.

Therefore, the logical and sensible thing for the Jews to do now would be to finally acknowledge the fact that the Haram al-Sharif is simply NOT the site of the Temple Mount and for them to continue their search for the location of the lost Temples elsewhere.
  #15  
Old Mar 5, '11, 3:40 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Jerusalem ,Islam's 3rd most Holy site.

I am referring to historical, geographical, and anthropological facts. St. Mary Major of Justinian was built over the Temple Mount. The church was continued in use, even though parts were destroyed by warring expansionist tribes and armies....

Here is a Muslim take: http://www.islamicawakening.com/view.../articleID=408

Here are 2 non-Christian Jewish takes:

The first one, you may have to first bring up www.menorah.org, then do search with:
www.menorah.org/Muhammad's Alleged Night Journey in Sura 17.pdf

Another Jewish take, this one more reactionary to Arafat:

www.emetnews.org/analysis/greatlie.php

St. Mary Major was a most dominating edifice on the Jerusalem hill....a long chamber connecting it to the Gates of Damascus, the church over the spot of the Temple Mount. That was what was standing at Mohammed's alleged ascension into heaven.

So in essence, Mohammad ascended into heaven next to a Catholic Byzantine church.

That gives a very conflicting image...so one had to go...Now number two may be going back out...

We heard as children that Scripture predicted that some day the Jews would return to Jerusalem. And we also don't hear just how many Jews converted to Christ and remained in Jerusalem.

Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Northern Africa were all teeming Christian populations. The Roman rite included North Africa in ancient times in terms of its liturgies.
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