Any thoughts?

MarcusAndreas · #1 Mar 6, '11, 3:56 pm

I've been thinking about God as creator lately.

I've had to conclude that God has been creating from all eternity, and there could very well be numerous universes, incarnations, transfigurations of said universes, etc., and our world is one of these many theoretical creations.

This is not to say that the universe et. al. always existed, but rather that God has always been creating, but the universes began to exist.

Is there anything unorthodox about this? Are there any saints who've speculated similarly?

JDaniel · #2 Mar 6, '11, 4:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas

I've been thinking about God as creator lately.

I've had to conclude that God has been creating from all eternity, and there could very well be numerous universes, incarnations, transfigurations of said universes, etc., and our world is one of these many theoretical creations.

This is not to say that the universe et. al. always existed, but rather that God has always been creating, but the universes began to exist.

Is there anything unorthodox about this? Are there any saints who've speculated similarly?

MA:

Interesting. I would say that I tend to agree with you. There could well be uncountable universes out there. What I can't imagine, though, is that in each one God created an earth, like ours, that needed a Son, like Christ, to redeem the inhabitants. But, who knows?

God bless,
jd

Pieman333272 · #3 Mar 6, '11, 4:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas

I've been thinking about God as creator lately.

I've had to conclude that God has been creating from all eternity, and there could very well be numerous universes, incarnations, transfigurations of said universes, etc., and our world is one of these many theoretical creations.

This is not to say that the universe et. al. always existed, but rather that God has always been creating, but the universes began to exist.

Is there anything unorthodox about this? Are there any saints who've speculated similarly?

There's nothing unorthodox I know of in there, but may I ask:

Will God ever stop creating? I mean, he has free will, so, if he felt like it, could he stop according to your ideas? Just curious.

Neat idea, anyway.

dmar198 · #4 Mar 6, '11, 5:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas

I've been thinking about God as creator lately.

I've had to conclude that God has been creating from all eternity, and there could very well be numerous universes, incarnations, transfigurations of said universes, etc., and our world is one of these many theoretical creations.

This is not to say that the universe et. al. always existed, but rather that God has always been creating, but the universes began to exist.

Is there anything unorthodox about this? Are there any saints who've speculated similarly?

The "multiple incarnations" thing sends up a red flag to me, but I can't put my finger on what.

Defender1 · #5 Mar 6, '11, 5:54 pm

I tend to agree with you . This is an interesting point you have made. It is common sense for us to believe that there was a first cause and that first cause was created by an intelligent designer . The BIg bang could have been that first cause . An Atheists would tell you that this is all by chance . Now I always ask them to think about us as humans . We have our body parts such as arms ,legs ,hands ,eyes mouth nose etc. Everyone of these parts do something for us . We have them for a reason . Just as the earth plants and the water. We have vegetables and fruits to eat . We see things on this beautiful planet .They all have a purpose God gave them .Yet somehow they believed we evolved from matter out of know where through random process . Just something to think about .(sorry if it came off like a rant ) www.defendingthefaith-frankie.blogspot.com

MarcusAndreas · #6 Mar 6, '11, 6:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmar198

The "multiple incarnations" thing sends up a red flag to me, but I can't put my finger on what.

Oh really?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Thomas Aquinas

What has power for one thing, and no more, has a power limited to one. Now the power of a Divine Person is infinite, nor can it be limited by any created thing. Hence it may not be said that a Divine Person so assumed one human nature as to be unable to assume another. For it would seem to follow from this that the Personality of the Divine Nature was so comprehended by one human nature as to be unable to assume another to its Personality; and this is impossible, for the Uncreated cannot be comprehended by any creature. Hence it is plain that, whether we consider the Divine Person in regard to His power, which is the principle of the union, or in regard to His Personality, which is the term of the union, it has to be said that the Divine Person, over and beyond the human nature which He has assumed, can assume another distinct human nature.

dmar198 · #7 Mar 6, '11, 6:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas

Oh really?

Yes, really. The idea seems to send up a red flag. Your quotation from Aquinas on this point does alleviate my concern somewhat; it should be noted that he is affirming the possibility of Christ assuming more than one nature, he is not asserting that it has actually happened.

MarcusAndreas · #8 Mar 7, '11, 1:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmar198

Yes, really. The idea seems to send up a red flag. Your quotation from Aquinas on this point does alleviate my concern somewhat; it should be noted that he is affirming the possibility of Christ assuming more than one nature, he is not asserting that it has actually happened.

I'm not asserting that it actually happened either, merely suggesting that it seems highly probable.

ronnie bonigli · #9 Mar 7, '11, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas

I've been thinking about God as creator lately.

I've had to conclude that God has been creating from all eternity, and there could very well be numerous universes, incarnations, transfigurations of said universes, etc., and our world is one of these many theoretical creations.

This is not to say that the universe et. al. always existed, but rather that God has always been creating, but the universes began to exist.

Is there anything unorthodox about this? Are there any saints who've speculated similarly?

There's nothing wrong with saying there could be other universes or could have been other incarnations, but if you then go to say that you believe there are other universes and have been other incarnations, you are believing in something in which there is no theological, empirical, scientific, or any other kind of evidence.

You could speculate in other universes, but until you have some evidence to support that speculation, it remains in the shadowy world of elves, fairies, and unicorns.

Curious Seed · #10 Mar 7, '11, 4:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas

I've been thinking about God as creator lately.

I've had to conclude that God has been creating from all eternity, and there could very well be numerous universes, incarnations, transfigurations of said universes, etc., and our world is one of these many theoretical creations.

This is not to say that the universe et. al. always existed, but rather that God has always been creating, but the universes began to exist.

Is there anything unorthodox about this? Are there any saints who've speculated similarly?

That God has always been creating is a common thought - and not surprising - but, as interesting and probable as it seems, there is no proof or authority to substantiate it. So, with respect to truth, take it or leave it, one is no wiser for it.

That there not only could be, but are, numerous universes is well established in physics and astronomy.

ronnie bonigli · #11 Mar 7, '11, 6:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curious Seed

That God has always been creating is a common thought - and not surprising - but, as interesting and probable as it seems, there is no proof or authority to substantiate it. So, with respect to truth, take it or leave it, one is no wiser for it.

There you go, nice well reasoned and intelligent response there.

Quote:

That there not only could be, but are, numerous universes is well established in physics and astronomy.

Whoa! back the truck up, what did I say a second ago?

TimothyH · #12 Mar 7, '11, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronnie bonigli

Whoa! back the truck up

Something from way back in my teenage years smiled at this.

Hey Ronnie, check yourself out in three more posts.

Luke K · #13 Mar 7, '11, 8:00 pm

I don't see how multiple incarnations could be possible. Now that Jesus is human, he's human forever. How could he take on a physical alien nature and still remain human? You can't be an alien baby and a grown human at the same time.

Now what would be really interesting is if the Father and Holy Spirit incarnated themselves in two other universes! God revealing himself through 3 different salvation theologies...

Abba · #14 Mar 7, '11, 9:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmar198

The "multiple incarnations" thing sends up a red flag to me, but I can't put my finger on what.

Could it be because it brings to mind CCC 1013?

1013 Death is the end of man's earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When "the single course of our earthly life" is completed, we shall not return to other earthly lives: "It is appointed for men to die once." There is no "reincarnation" after death.
************

MarcusAndreas,

I understand that you are not referring to the possibility of human beings possibly being reincarnated but, Jesus. I think Jesus would not be reincarnated in another dimension or universe. Although the quote you provide of Saint Thomas Aquinas demonstrates logical reasoning, I do not think that it at all can be applied to the proposition that there can necessarily be other universes etc...

I agree with the reasoning of the quote. I think that I can apply it to the thought or question; can God decide to undo his creation? Well, I suppose I would answer that he CAN. Can he create other universes? Well, I suppose he CAN. Afterall, he is God and it would be unreasonable to limit his freedom. But, would he undo his creation? I think not and again, I do not think that he would reincarnate in another universe nor would the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

I am not very articulate nor eloquent, but, I will try to briefly explain why I think that Our Lord Jesus Christ would not reincarnate in another form but will remain in that inwhich he was transfigured which is his glorified human body - the one and only one he had while on earth.Well, one thing that I have a decent appreciation of Our Lord of is his respect for our human dignity and his pure and absolute love for all and each of us. If he or the Father or the Holy Spirit were to be reincarnated in another dimension and, in the case of Our Lord in a different body, this would diminish his sacrifice and the beautiful expression of his love for us. Our Lord suffered, died and was buried and on the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures. He will rise again in Glory and his Kingdom will have no end. He died once and resurrected and in doing so he conquered death. He does not need to do this again.

I apologize for not stating a nice clear argument for my position. But, it is really to the point for me of being inconceibable that Our Lord would reincarnate in some other type of body. Perhaps, some one more eloquent than I can write about how this is unorthodox. At the center of my understanding is the love of God for each and everyone of us, it is something that can not be duplicated. He truly and genuine does love us human beings and we are his adopted children."For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16).

I appreciate free thinking and we certainly do not know much of heaven. It could be that in heaven there will be other types of living things but, I my faith tells me that Jesus will remain in his gloridied human body forever. This understanding helps me to also understand how much God loves human beings.

Hope you enjoyed reading my thoughts,

Abba

Abba · #15 Mar 8, '11, 9:31 pm

Hello everyone,

Sorry about the typos on the previous post. Oh well, back to bigger and better things.

I, of course, remained thinking about my comments on this thread and wished that I could somehow express my understanding better. I also thought about how I just wrote that Our Lord Jesus will remain in his glorified human body for all eternity but did not explained the reasons of my understanding. I continue to learn and as I do; I learn how to express certain understandings better. Like that comment regarding Our Lord Jesus glorified body, if I was more articulate with I think my understanding of the Trinity I could probably the explain reasoning behind the understanding better. If I was more articulate with my understanding of the Trinity I could also logically and reasonably demonstrate how neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit would ever incarnate in our universe or any other 'potentially' possible universe. But, I lack the ability to express myself and that is made worse by my lack of knowledge. I hope that it will improve as I continue to learn.

With all the above in mind, I picked up a book today, I skimmed it and decided it is a book I want to read cover to cover - this is VERY RARE. So, I started deep skimming and I was reading chapter five and there the author clearly states that Our Lord will have his human body for all eternity, Then in another section he again makes a similar statement. I just want to quote him here, in case some people found my comment radical. (Well, I found one of the sections I wanted to quote..):

"Our present concern is simply with the new way openned to man for the knowledge of God by the sheer fact of the Incarnation, the fact that at a given moment of history God took to himself and made it utterly His own that, remaining God without diminution or dimming of his Divinity, He was still truly man, and remains forever man. " Theology and Sanity. F. J. Sheed. 1946. Sheed & Ward.( I highly recommend this book. Hard to put down.)

It is a simple quote that does not present the reasoning behind the understanding, but, I am pleased that I could quote a good Catholic writer that states at least a couple of times in one book this understanding. The bottom line is that Jesus will remain in his glorified human body for all eternity. Contrary to Nietsche's implications and wonderings, God is not evil, God is good, and he will not deceive us. Jesus did not pretend that this would be the case, this really is the case. This tells us a lot about the love and respect God has for us human beings, and for you and for me, and "Woe to those who lead God's little ones astray.." God loves each one of us more than any human being could ever love us.

Peace,

Abba