Illinois governor signs death penalty ban

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski

That wouldn't fly. Harm would have to be defined as something more serious than taking a punch at another man or throwing feces at him.

On what legal basis?

But regardless, the point is that it takes more than just a perceived threat. There would have to be concrete evidence of the actual threat. And I don't think the OP suggested that the mere perception of a threat would be sufficient.

[estesbob]

Good for Him! A civilized country should not resort to such barbarity.

[hxcCatholic413]

Originally Posted by pnewton

Catholic theology has never considered capital punishment murder. Yes, murder is murder, but the death penalty is neither () at least in Catholic doctrine.

well I try to be pro-life in all regards that's why i'm against the death penalty....

[hxcCatholic413]

Originally Posted by stanmaxkolbe

Officer Aubrey Hawkins was murdered by people with life sentences:

On December 13, 2000, seven men carried out an elaborate scheme and escaped from the John B. Connally Unit, a maximum-security state prison near the South Texas city of Kenedy.

At the time of the breakout, the reported ringleader of the Texas Seven, 30-year-old George Rivas, was serving 18 consecutive 15-to-life sentences. Michael Anthony Rodriguez, 38, was serving a 99-to-life term, while Larry James Harper, 37, Joseph Garcia and Patrick Henry Murphy, Jr., 39, were all serving 50 year sentences. Donald Keith Newbury, the member with the longest rap sheet of the group, was serving a 99-year sentence, and the youngest member, Randy Halprin, 23, was serving a 30-year sentence for injury to a child.

On December 19, four of the members checked into an Econo Lodge motel in Farmers Branch, Texas (under assumed names). They decided to rob an Oshman's Sporting Goods in nearby Irving, Texas. On December 24, 2000, they held up the store and stole at least 40 guns and sets of ammunition. An off-duty employee standing outside of the store noticed the commotion inside and called police.

Irving policeman Aubrey Hawkins responded to the call, arrived on the scene and was almost immediately ambushed; his autopsy later showed that he had sustained eleven gunshots and had been run over by the fleeing gang. Hawkins died at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas shortly after his arrival.

Giving an example of an emotional case won't win your point...the fact of the matter is that innocent people have been placed on Death Row (Anthony Porter - Illinois).

"A Nation that kills its Children (in all aspects) is a Nation without Hope" - Mother Teresa

[Tsuwano]

Originally Posted by pnewton

Catholic theology has never considered capital punishment murder. Yes, murder is murder, but the death penalty is neither () at least in Catholic doctrine.

Actually, I don't believe this is true in all cases. I think that Catholic doctrine does consider the death penalty murder when it is applied unjustly. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for one, suffered the death penalty in Nazi Germany and I feel sure that Catholic doctrine would consider his execution as state sanctioned murder.

[stinkcat_14]

Originally Posted by Rich Olszewski

That's some company for the U.S.to be in.

Good for Pat Quinn!

Actually, if you look at the number of executions per capita, which is a more sensible way to look at it, the US is much lower on the list.

[Ender]

Originally Posted by hxcCatholic413

well I try to be pro-life in all regards that's why i'm against the death penalty....

This would seem to be an unassailable position: how can one be pro life if one supports the death penalty? There is more to the question than what appears on the surface, however, as the Church appears to have understood when she promulgated the Catechism of Trent. In it she stated:

The just use of this power [capital punishment], far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment* is the preservation and security of human life.

The preservation and security of human life is attained, however, not simply by providing physical protection - eliminating the possibility that a murderer will be able to kill again - but by impressing on the public the terrible nature of the sin, a perception we no longer possess.

Of these remedies [for the tendency to commit murder] the most efficacious is to form a just conception of the wickedness of murder.

That we no longer view murder with the same abhorrence we once did was inevitable.

Is it possible for punishment to signify the gravity of crimes which deserve death if their perpetrators are never visited with execution? (J.Budziszewski)

Ender

[Ender]

Originally Posted by Tsuwano

Actually, I don't believe this is true in all cases. I think that Catholic doctrine does consider the death penalty murder when it is applied unjustly. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for one, suffered the death penalty in Nazi Germany and I feel sure that Catholic doctrine would consider his execution as state sanctioned murder.

The issue is not whether a State can abuse its rights; no one has suggested that every execution is just merely because a sovereign State applies it. It was suggested that the execution of an innocent man is the same as murder which, assuming that it was simply a mistake and not the result of incompetence or malfeasance, is untrue. In such a situation, as regrettable as the mistake would be and as tragic its consequences, it would remain simply a mistake and those involved would be neither morally nor legally guilty of anything.

Ender

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by Tsuwano

Actually, I don't believe this is true in all cases. I think that Catholic doctrine does consider the death penalty murder when it is applied unjustly. .

Yes, as in the case of Ahab and Nabob. But this only begs the question of what is unjust. I still said that I have never seen anything in Catholic doctrine that labels the death penalty as unjust. I know of Ahab, Nazis and others that have murdered through the death penalty, but never have I seen anything that went beyond specific abuses.

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by hxcCatholic413

Giving an example of an emotional case won't win your point...the fact of the matter is that innocent people have been placed on Death Row (Anthony Porter - Illinois).

This is the worst case of pot and kettle I have ever seen. You criticize an action you take yourself in literally the same sentence.

"A Nation that kills its Children (in all aspects) is a Nation without Hope" - Mother Teresa

This is a misquote. The contex this was made in was specifically referring to abortion. It it not an offense against the truth to misquote and imply someone said something that they did not?

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by hxcCatholic413

well I try to be pro-life in all regards that's why i'm against the death penalty....

I am strongly in favor of the value of life too, which is why I see the possibility of the death penalty. Strange how that works.

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by estesbob

Good for Him! A civilized country should not resort to such barbarity.

You and I have been on differing sides of this a few times, haven't we. (as have I and Ender). I can not say that I am wholly displeased. Capital punishment is a mixed bag for me. The most I can say is that I wish we could justify banning it. I long for what John Paul II said to be true, about society being advanced enough to safely incarcerated murderers. I just can't help but think of all of those sentenced to life, or lesser sentence, who end up with a death sentence at the hands of other prisoners. I know our society discounts the life of its prisoners once they are locked up, but I can't get them out of my mind. The youngest I know was a 16 year old teenager convicted of capital murder that died a year later. A minor who is certified can not receive the death penalty, at least at the hands of a judge. Yet he died within one year of entering prison a violent end.

[Rich Olszewski]

Originally Posted by Ender

In such a situation, as regrettable as the mistake would be and as tragic its consequences, it would remain simply a mistake and those involved would be neither morally nor legally guilty of anything.

How blithely you excuse the execution of an innocent man as a simple mistake.

I can hear the judge and prosecutor discussing it after the fact, "A regrettable mistake. Too bad. Oh well, we ought to try to do better next time. More coffee? And do try those excellent cookies on the tray."

[estesbob]

Originally Posted by pnewton

You and I have been on differing sides of this a few times, haven't we. (as have I and Ender)..

One thing you , Ender and I do agree on is that is that there is absolutely no moral equivalence between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion. A Catholic can in good conscience support capital punishment ,they can never, however, support abortion either directly or indirectly.

[kenofken]

Originally Posted by estesbob

One thing you , Ender and I do agree on is that is that there is absolutely no moral equivalence between supporting the death penalty and supporting abortion. A Catholic can in good conscience support capital punishment ,they can never, however, support abortion either directly or indirectly.

There's a distinction in theology, but it's one that strikes many real pro-life people as one of convenience rather than substance. It's not lost on many people that so many allegedly pro-life Christians not only support the idea of a death penalty, they do so with a clear sort of blood lust. They delight in the prospect of having as many criminals put down with as little delay as possible for as many crimes as possible. Some openly call for extrajudicial killings of people they consider evil.