Is eternity in hell cruel and unusual punishment?

oldsmokee · #1 Mar 17, '11, 1:17 pm

This relates to another question I asked about God loving us and creating us when He knows that we will "choose" hell.

I would never sentence anyone to eternity in hell. I am opposed to the death sentence because I want the person to have all the time possible to repent.

danserr · #2 Mar 17, '11, 1:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsmokee

This relates to another question I asked about God loving us and creating us when He knows that we will "choose" hell.

I would never sentence anyone to eternity in hell. I am opposed to the death sentence because I want the person to have all the time possible to repent.

Hell threads come up so much, this is my general response, I hope you don't mind. You can also search for other one's of course.

1. First, people need to get the pop. image of hell out of their heads. The one where God sends people to a fiery furnace to be roasted over a grill while demons in red leotards poke them with pitchforks to see if they are well done yet. This makes for good artwork, but there is not a very theologically sophisticated version of hell.

2. Rather, hell needs to be understand as a self-willed separation from God. God does not send people to hell, people freely choose to separate themselves from God. God does not wish people to go to hell. He was Himself tortured and killed to prevent it and would offer people as many chances of forgiveness as would do any good. But it is too realistic to think that some people will reject that forgiveness. It is very hard for people to admit they are wrong. So God does what such people want, he leaves them alone, that is all. C.S. Lewis said that “in the end there are two kinds of people, those who say to God, ‘thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says ‘thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell choose it, without that choice there could be no hell.”

3. Surely you can see how this has to be? Take as an example Hitler. Let us suppose (we don’t know, of course, but as an example) that he refused to repent and be sorry no matter how many chances he was given. Does it seem right that, unrepentant, he should sit down to the same celebration feast as his innocent victims? More still, he would not even want to. He would refuse to enter heaven as long as his victims were there. And so God would do just what he wants, God would leave him alone. And that soul, rejecting forgiveness, rejecting the source of all goodness and joy, shut up in itself with its rage, hatred, bitterness, and envy would be hell. How could it not be?
St. Augustine said that every disordered mind is its own punishment.

4. There are no people in Hell. C.S. Lewis said “what is cast into hell is not a person, it is remains,” what is left of what was once a person. NT Wright pointed out that one fact of human life is that people become like what they worship. Hence why it is so important we worship the right things, we are to reflect the image of God and by doing so, we can become like Him. But when people worship the wrong things, money, sex, or nurse bitterness, they reflect those things, to the point that they pass into an ex-human state. So no people are tortured in hell. It is the remains of every mind shut in on itself rejecting God.

Suggested reading:
CS. Lewis, The Great Divorce.
CS Lewis, “Hell” in The Problem of Pain (chap. 8).
NT Wright, “Beyond Hope, Beyond Pity,” Surprised by Hope, pp.175-183

**puzzleannie** · #3 Mar 17, '11, 1:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsmokee

This relates to another question I asked about God loving us and creating us when He knows that we will "choose" hell.

I would never sentence anyone to eternity in hell. I am opposed to the death sentence because I want the person to have all the time possible to repent.

God would not either and he wants what you want, that is why he gives us eternity--we are no longer in time when we face him for judgement--and why he gives us free will to choose hell, and condemns no one there who does not freely choose it, for all eternity, in full knowledge and freedom. Any case, what you or I would or would not do is irrelevant, since our names do not begin with G and end with D.

warpspeedpetey · #4 Mar 17, '11, 1:41 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

Any case, what you or I would or would not do is irrelevant, since our names do not begin with G and end with D.

I like this one, mind if I steal it?

thomas jd · #5 Mar 17, '11, 2:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by danserr

Hell threads come up so much, this is my general response, I hope you don't mind. You can also search for other one's of course.

1. First, people need to get the pop. image of hell out of their heads. The one where God sends people to a fiery furnace to be roasted over a grill while demons in red leotards poke them with pitchforks to see if they are well done yet. This makes for good artwork, but there is not a very theologically sophisticated version of hell.

2. Rather, hell needs to be understand as a self-willed separation from God. God does not send people to hell, people freely choose to separate themselves from God. God does not wish people to go to hell. He was Himself tortured and killed to prevent it and would offer people as many chances of forgiveness as would do any good. But it is too realistic to think that some people will reject that forgiveness. It is very hard for people to admit they are wrong. So God does what such people want, he leaves them alone, that is all. C.S. Lewis said that “in the end there are two kinds of people, those who say to God, ‘thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says ‘thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell choose it, without that choice there could be no hell.”

3. Surely you can see how this has to be? Take as an example Hitler. Let us suppose (we don’t know, of course, but as an example) that he refused to repent and be sorry no matter how many chances he was given. Does it seem right that, unrepentant, he should sit down to the same celebration feast as his innocent victims? More still, he would not even want to. He would refuse to enter heaven as long as his victims were there. And so God would do just what he wants, God would leave him alone. And that soul, rejecting forgiveness, rejecting the source of all goodness and joy, shut up in itself with its rage, hatred, bitterness, and envy would be hell. How could it not be?
St. Augustine said that every disordered mind is its own punishment.

4. There are no people in Hell. C.S. Lewis said “what is cast into hell is not a person, it is remains,” what is left of what was once a person. NT Wright pointed out that one fact of human life is that people become like what they worship. Hence why it is so important we worship the right things, we are to reflect the image of God and by doing so, we can become like Him. But when people worship the wrong things, money, sex, or nurse bitterness, they reflect those things, to the point that they pass into an ex-human state. So no people are tortured in hell. It is the remains of every mind shut in on itself rejecting God.

Suggested reading:
CS. Lewis, The Great Divorce.
CS Lewis, “Hell” in The Problem of Pain (chap. 8).
NT Wright, “Beyond Hope, Beyond Pity,” Surprised by Hope, pp.175-183

"Theologically sophisticated version of Hell ?"
Matt.13:42 : "cast them into the furnace of fire, where there will be the weeping, and the
gnashing of teeth"
Now that is a theological description of hell.

**tonyrey** · #6 Mar 17, '11, 3:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by danserr

4. There are no people in Hell. C.S. Lewis said “what is cast into hell is not a person, it is remains,” what is left of what was once a person. NT Wright pointed out that one fact of human life is that people become like what they worship. Hence why it is so important we worship the right things, we are to reflect the image of God and by doing so, we can become like Him. But when people worship the wrong things, money, sex, or nurse bitterness, they reflect those things, to the point that they pass into an ex-human state. So no people are tortured in hell. It is the remains of every mind shut in on itself rejecting God.

I'm a great admirer of C.S.Lewis but I disagree with him that "what is cast into hell is not a person". A person made in God's image cannot cease to be a person. If evil people lost their sanity they would no longer be evil! Their existence would be pointless. It would be more merciful to let the damned disappear rather than survive for all eternity as tortured relics.

As you pointed out, hell is "a self-willed separation from God". It is the result of a deliberate, clear-sighted rejection of our Creator by those who choose to live for themselves in "splendid" isolation. But no one would opt for hell if it didn't have its compensations! There is great pleasure and satisfaction in being absolute master of oneself and having total independence - although, as you have also pointed out, there is a terrible price to pay. To worship oneself is lunacy because the self is never satisfied with itself. In St. Augustine's words "You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you."

To deny that hell exists is to deny the reality of free will and evil. Our power of choice and self-determination is the greatest gift we have received because otherwise we would be incapable of love. Paradoxically, hell is a demonstration of God's perfection because He is prepared to allow us to reject Him and frustrate His will forever rather than deprive us of our freedom. Even in heaven He is sacrificing Himself for our sake...

slywakka250 · #7 Mar 17, '11, 3:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsmokee

This relates to another question I asked about God loving us and creating us when He knows that we will "choose" hell.

I would never sentence anyone to eternity in hell. I am opposed to the death sentence because I want the person to have all the time possible to repent.

I often wonder, is there any happiness in hell?? Most if not all humans just want to be happy. why would anyone willfully choose infinite torture? I would argue that such a person might not even be a human person at all. Have you ever met someone who said they wanted to suffer in eternal despair, and strives all their life to maximize their suffering so as to achieve their goal???

Iron Donkey · #8 Mar 17, '11, 3:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas jd

"Theologically sophisticated version of Hell ?"
Matt.13:42 : "cast them into the furnace of fire, where there will be the weeping, and the
gnashing of teeth"
Now that is a theological description of hell.

That is a description of what Hell is like. It may not be exactly what Hell is, and does not by itself give much insight into why people are there. In like manner, I'm pretty sure that "I am the vine" does not imply that Christ has leaves or photosynthesizes, though He does have other vine-like attributes.

Hell is undoubtedly unpleasant:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCC

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." ...

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

The active part God takes in judgment, as I understand it, is revealing to ourselves and God what is inside our hearts - whether we have rejected God or not. We may or may not know that what we are doing is rejecting God (when did we see you hungry and not feed you etc.), but that is what matters in the end. If we reject God totally enough to despise the very idea of entering into communion with Him, then He will respect that choice.

Iron Donkey · #9 Mar 17, '11, 3:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by slywakka250

I often wonder, is there any happiness in hell?? Most if not all humans just want to be happy. why would anyone willfully choose infinite torture? I would argue that such a person might not even be a human person at all. Have you ever met someone who said they wanted to suffer in eternal despair, and strives all their life to maximize their suffering so as to achieve their goal???

The choice isn't between infinite torturer and infinite bliss. It's between union with God and being cut off from God. The other two are just consequences.

You may say that a thinking person who just wants to maximize his happiness (a goal of debatable worth) and is aware of the truth logically should realize that he should choose God. But I wouldn't accuse the human race of always behaving logically.

And that doesn't take into account that many of those who seek happiness may not know the truth, and so may not realize that actions intended to increase current happiness could have dire consequences later - a person who does not know about God may very well be unaware that he is in the process of making the most important choice he could ever make all throughout his life. (One of the reasons we should spread the truth.)

warpspeedpetey · #10 Mar 17, '11, 5:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsmokee

This relates to another question I asked about God loving us and creating us when He knows that we will "choose" hell.

In the metaphysical sense, G-ds knowing and our choosing are contemporary. As crazy as it sounds, there really is no such thing as "time". There is only "change". Often when we look at a clock we think it is measuring some invisible, undetectable element called "time". The clock is really only measuring the changing of the gears. This is a very hot topic in physics now.

G-d doesn't create people for the joy of seeing them walk themselves into hell. Free will is necessary for the existence of Love. If we cannot freely choose to not-love G-d, we also cannot freely choose to Love Him. Unfortunately many people choose not-love.

Quote:

I would never sentence anyone to eternity in hell. I am opposed to the death sentence because I want the person to have all the time possible to repent.

G-d doesn't want that either. In fact the Almighty Creator of the Universe, He who is the Act of Existing, the most Perfect Being humbled Himself and allowed Himself to be tortured to death in the most shameful public way. All to prevent that. He has done everything possible for us. Now, all we need do is choose to Love Him.

danserr · #11 Mar 18, '11, 10:36 am

Quote:

"Theologically sophisticated version of Hell ?"
Matt.13:42 : "cast them into the furnace of fire, where there will be the weeping, and the
gnashing of teeth"
Now that is a theological description of hell.

It is also imagery. You might as well say that when Jesus called his followers "the salt of the earth" that he literally meant that they were salt.

Quote:

I'm a great admirer of C.S.Lewis but I disagree with him that "what is cast into hell is not a person". A person made in God's image cannot cease to be a person. If evil people lost their sanity they would no longer be evil! Their existence would be pointless. It would be more merciful to let the damned disappear rather than survive for all eternity as tortured relics.

I'm not denying that hell exists at all. Actually, another interesting thought is Fulton Sheen who said "hell is the final guarantee of human freedom; it is the guarantee that a soul can forever raise his clenched fist at God and say 'non serviat'".

I still like Lewis's and NT Wright's view though, I'm not absolutely committed to it, but I think it makes the most sense, since you see a likeness of it even in this world. A person can slowly get into a dark and bitter mood. They can pull themselves out, but after a while as the will the dark mood, it becomes harder and harder to pull out of, until finally, there is not person left to pull out of that mood. Only that hatred and bitterness for all eternity. And so it is not a person that suffers, but the remains of what was once a person. NT Wright calls these "creatures in an ex-human state."

davidv · #12 Mar 18, '11, 10:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by slywakka250

I often wonder, is there any happiness in hell?? Most if not all humans just want to be happy. why would anyone willfully choose infinite torture? I would argue that such a person might not even be a human person at all. Have you ever met someone who said they wanted to suffer in eternal despair, and strives all their life to maximize their suffering so as to achieve their goal???

Do you know anyone who has accepted counterfeit currency in exchange for something they sold? Did thy purposely choose to be scammed?

The same is true with sin. Those who sin choose a counterfeit happiness. What is insidious is, that like the counterfeit currency, the recipient won't necessarily recognize it as such. So, whether you recognize it or not you don't have the real thing.

The key difference between the currency example and sin is that in the currency case you may be able to pass on the counterfeit without detection. However, the effects of sin will eventually appear.

**Tantum ergo** · #13 Mar 18, '11, 11:10 am

Right. People need to realize that hell is not a question of 'only' infinite torture, as though nothing else exists there. The torture is a consequence of the person's choosing to separate himself/herself from God.

Even here on earth, we all know of people who suffer willingly because the 'benefits' they feel they get 'over-ride' the suffering. And it's not just because they think, "well, once I'm dead I won't have to do X'. If they could have what they want 'for eternity', they would continue to suffer for eternity.

It might be a tiny case but think for example of a woman who gets a painful 'wax' regularly. The pain is suffering. It is unnecessary in that she does not HAVE to get the wax-- it is a free choice for her to do so. But the benefits of her feelings of looking good outweigh the pain, and if she was told that the only way she could continue to look 'good' were that she could choose to get that wax and look good for all eternity, she would do so, willingly suffering the pain.

Or think of a person facing the draft who shoots himself and takes off fingers or toes. Painful? Yes. Permanently disabling? Yes. But 'worth it' to get out of the war. And if you told the person that if he did this he would have to maintain the lost digits and pain throughout eternity, but he would not have to serve in the war, he would go ahead and still shoot himself.

Now you have hell. The 'benefits' of separating from God are that the person does not have to live by God's will but by his own which is IN OPPOSITION to God. And that feeling of power, of having 'beaten' God (even at the expense of infinite eternal torture, loss and pain) is 'worth' it to the soul which is so selfish that it will NOT acknowledge that God is Lord.

And there are an awful lot of 'cafeteria Catholics' today who are in various stages of denial or revisionism or just plain wishful thinking, who believe they can 'turn away' from God in this area, or that, and since it isn't a 'complete' turnaround and rejection of everything, they're 'ok.' They aren't. The twin failings of diabolical pride and lack of obedience to authority are the scourges of late 20th and early 21st century society IMHO.

**tonyrey** · #14 Mar 18, '11, 3:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by slywakka250

I often wonder, is there any happiness in hell??

There is pleasure and satisfaction in having absolute power in a kingdom of your own making.

Quote:

Most if not all humans just want to be happy. why would anyone willfully choose infinite torture?

They don't choose infinite torture but they are prepared to accept the misery of isolation and frustration for the sake of total independence.

Quote:

I would argue that such a person might not even be a human person at all.

Evil persons are dehumanised to the exact extent that they are inhuman!

Quote:

Have you ever met someone who said they wanted to suffer in eternal despair, and strives all their life to maximize their suffering so as to achieve their goal???

I have heard of people who want to maximize their pleasure, satisfaction and lust for power regardless of the suffering they inflict on others. Ultimately they get what they deserve...

**tonyrey** · #15 Mar 18, '11, 3:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by danserr

I'm not denying that hell exists at all. Actually, another interesting thought is Fulton Sheen who said "hell is the final guarantee of human freedom; it is the guarantee that a soul can forever raise his clenched fist at God and say 'non serviat'".

I still like Lewis's and NT Wright's view though, I'm not absolutely committed to it, but I think it makes the most sense, since you see a likeness of it even in this world. A person can slowly get into a dark and bitter mood. They can pull themselves out, but after a while as the will the dark mood, it becomes harder and harder to pull out of, until finally, there is not person left to pull out of that mood. Only that hatred and bitterness for all eternity. And so it is not a person that suffers, but the remains of what was once a person. NT Wright calls these "creatures in an ex-human state."

I agree that those who are evil are dehumanised to the exact extent that they are inhuman! Whether a person ever ceases to have free will is another matter. It would suggest that slavery to sin can become so extreme that even Christ's infinite love on the Cross is powerless to liberate that person...