Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Mar 22, '11, 4:19 pm
Publisher Publisher is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 31, 2007
Posts: 6,732
Religion: Quaker
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by valentino View Post
foreverGrace:you said more liberal ones.why is it liberal to drink wine in your view?
I'm not "foreverGrace"...but many many moons ago, when I was a teenager...my parents attended the Church of the Nazarene...a "holiness church"...which did not allow the consumption of alcohol or tobacco products. No movies....no dances....makeup and jewlery were discouraged.....those faith communities that allowed alcohol were considered "liberal"...."liberal" meant the Mainstream religious communities...Methodists...Lutherans.... Episcopal....UCC....Presbyterian....any tradition that had a semblance of a "liturgy" was "liberal"....

Out of these groups came "liberal theology" with their "liberal" stances on alcohol....Harvey Cox was a recognize "liberal theologian" of the day....I read his "Secular Society" when in college.
  #47  
Old Mar 22, '11, 5:17 pm
jericho777's Avatar
jericho777 jericho777 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Posts: 1,087
Religion: Saved by Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.
__________________
Is 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
  #48  
Old Mar 22, '11, 5:50 pm
FaithJoy FaithJoy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2010
Posts: 330
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.
LOL Jericho777,post #777, @ 7:17pm.
Only time at my Church when wine wasn't available is when the Bishop makes a statement when he thinks it is unsafe, for example when the swine flu was a problem.
__________________
The Book of Wisdom 1:13
13
Because God did not make death, nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living
  #49  
Old Mar 22, '11, 6:08 pm
ChadS ChadS is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2007
Posts: 2,122
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaithJoy View Post
LOL Jericho777,post #777, @ 7:17pm.
Only time at my Church when wine wasn't available is when the Bishop makes a statement when he thinks it is unsafe, for example when the swine flu was a problem.
I agree, we always have the Precious Blood available. Plus thinking you're only getting half a sacrament is really a Protestant way of thinking. Both species contain the full body, blood and divinity of Christ. So, whether you take a host or just the Precious Blood you are getting a full sacrament and not a half sacrament.

ChadS
__________________
Tiber Swim Team: Class of 2004
  #50  
Old Mar 22, '11, 7:40 pm
Spirithound Spirithound is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: December 11, 2006
Posts: 5,521
Religion: Catholic, Latin Rite
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.
Each of the Sacred Species, bread and wine, become the complete and entire Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, so if only the form of bread is offered, it is still the complete sacrament.
__________________
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.

A forum for Discerning the Priesthood is now open!
  #51  
Old Mar 22, '11, 9:18 pm
ForeverGrace's Avatar
ForeverGrace ForeverGrace is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2010
Posts: 163
Religion: Reformed Baptist
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Valentino,

You asked why I thought that more liberal protestants drink alcohol. It's a fair question that I'm happy to answer to the best of my ability. I've been a Christian for more than 40 years, so I've seen a fair amount of protestant denominations. So here goes. In general, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) operates under something called the Baptist Faith and Message Statement. All churches that are part of the SBC agree to abide by it, and it does have a strong prohibition against liquor or spirits in general. I don't remember if it's an outright ban, but pretty close to it. Independent Baptists are probably even more strict when it comes to alcohol, & tobacco usage. Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians speak against drunkeness only, there is no statement against alcohol usage that I know of. From a Baptist perspective, the Episcopals, Lutheran (Evangelical), Methodists, Presbyterians (USA only), United Church of Christ and some other denominations are considered to be liberal in both their theology and their independent practices as compared to Baptists, Nazarenes, Church of God in Christ, the Amish, Brethren, Oneness Pentacostals and most non-denominational protestant fellowships.

Keep in mind, that denominational labels aren't hard and fast and you can't assume that one denomination is completely cohesive. An example are the Episcopals, who appear to be in their last death rattle as their churches are locked and shuttered and the most conservative Episocopals are now mostly called Anglicans as they slowly and surely leave the extremely liberal Episcopal church. I believe that the Catholic church has offered these Anglicans fellowship and some have accepted the offer. Others have not and prefer to be separate, but not associated with the Episcopals. To a lesser extent, the Lutherans have conservative and liberal branches as do Presbyterians and other denominations. It makes it very difficult to generalize what a denomination believes as opposed to others.

Alcohol is just an issue that separates people and the liberal churches seem to be a bit more open towards things that are not prohibited in scripture.

I did read another comment here that seemed to imply that those who don't use wine in their communion have an irrational fear of addiction. I don't know anyone who thinks that less than an a half ounce of alcohol will turn anyone into an addict. It's really more a matter of them being consistent within their own view of alcohol usage. If they think that alcohol shouldn't be used in daily life, they choose to honor that belief in their own services. In the US, the Blue Laws originated in this very same idea though to varying degrees.

Just to add, the frequency of communion is generally a ruling of the church body. Some serve communion every Sunday, others once a month, etc.

Blessings to all.
  #52  
Old Mar 22, '11, 9:53 pm
ConvertHopeful ConvertHopeful is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2011
Posts: 70
Religion: Trying to find the Tiber!
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

In the SBC, alcohol (and dancing) are an all-out ban!

I was taught that Jesus never drank alcohol, that it is pure evil, and that one who sells/gives it to others is even more evil than the drinker.

Also (since others have touched on it), I was taught (in the SBC) that the communion service is only symbolic b/c Christ died once. They believe that Catholics are heretics (among other reasons) because the Eucharist is equivalent to crucifying Christ each time.

Recently, at my parents' SBC church, a deacon was asked to resign his duties after 'someone" discovered that his family occasionally accented a meal with wine. He did step down as deacon and then the pastor needled him constantly until his family left. They are no longer Baptist and joined a non-denominational church. Also recently (pastor has driven off half of congregation in past yr), a family left after pastor needled a family b/c their daughter works as a cashier at a grocery store that sells beer. Then he singled her out in a sermon on the evils of selling beer (which so had me aching for a drink when my mom relayed this!!) In other words, this is serious business in the Southern Baptist Church.
  #53  
Old Mar 22, '11, 10:17 pm
guanophore's Avatar
guanophore guanophore is offline
Forum Elder
Prayer Warrior
Radio Club Member
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: February 14, 2007
Posts: 26,141
Religion: Obl. OSB
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jericho777 View Post
How come Catholics only offer half of the sacrament? Very rarely when I was catholic was wine ever offered to the congregation. Jesus said to use bread and wine not just bread.
As was noted, Jesus is wholly present in both.

But your statement clarifies that you have never been "Catholic" in your faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FaithJoy View Post
LOL Jericho777,post #777, @ 7:17pm.
Only time at my Church when wine wasn't available is when the Bishop makes a statement when he thinks it is unsafe, for example when the swine flu was a problem.
For the sake of our unchatechized and grossly misininformed brethren such as jericho here, it is absolutely essential that we choose our language carefully when discussing such matters. He has a valid point that the cup was withheld often throughout history, primarily to help the faithful to understand that the fullness of Christ is present in both.

However, it is wrong to say "wine wasn't available", as there is no longer any "wine" after the consecration, but only the appearance of it. He is right, no wine has ever been offered the congregation. Only the Precious Blood of the cup.
__________________
"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



  #54  
Old Mar 23, '11, 3:27 am
valentino valentino is offline
Regular Member
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: January 31, 2011
Posts: 2,276
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

publisher: thanks
  #55  
Old Mar 23, '11, 5:51 am
ConsciousCoward ConsciousCoward is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2011
Posts: 80
Religion: Mostly Christian, but I'm figuring it out.
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Having been raised in a Methodist church, I can explain only the reason I was given for grape juice rather than wine.

The Methodist church was, before it was a church, John Wesley's ministry to people that wouldn't normally go to church (farmers, the poor/homeless, alcoholics). Since the Methodist church started existing as an actual church, it has continued that evangelical ministry. As a result, there is a large substance abuse and alcoholic recovery program in the church. One of the reasons they don't want to use fermented wine is to help the recovering alcoholics maintain their abstinence from alcohol altogether, because even one drink can cause someone to falter.

There are other reasons, I'm sure, like that alcohol was illegal during the Prohibition, which was when most churches adopted grape juice, but that's one I haven't seen mentioned.
  #56  
Old Mar 23, '11, 7:44 am
Cat Cat is online now
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2004
Posts: 11,674
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Yes this I agree with. But can I ask a honest question? What is the purpose of having it if it is only symbolic anyway?
I was raised in the Conference Baptist denomination, and in my Protestant years (47 of them), I was also active in the Christian church (non-denominational Campbellite fellowship), the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and finally, the Evangelical Free Church in America.

None of these fellowships used real alcohol during Communion.

Your question is, "What is the purpose of having [communion] if it is only symbolic anyway?"

There are lots of reasons why evangelical Protestants celebrate Communion.

Keep in mind that in the evangelical denominations, Communion is not a sacrament, but it's an ordinance. The evangelicals do not have sacraments.

Also keep in mind that Catholics make use of symbolism all the time; e.g., the shamrock to symbolize the Trinity. There is nothing wrong with symbolism.

The main purpose of Communion in evangelical churches is to remember Jesus' death until He returns. In the church where I grew up, the Communion table had the following carved into it: "This do in remembrance of Me."

Because this is one of the main purposes of Communion, many evangelical Communion services are still somewhat solemn. Christ's death is not something to be flippant over.

Another purpose of Communion is to consider whether we need to repent of a besetting sin and ask Jesus to forgive us. Often a Communion service is held in conjunction with an altar call (usually with just a show of hands rather than asking people to come forward).

Again, this is something serious and therefore solemn.

A third purpose of Communion is to evangelize and offer non-believers the opportunity to receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. Those who do not believe in Jesus are told that they should not take Communion.

Finally, a fourth purpose of Communion is to remind all of the believers that we are One Body in Jesus Christ, and to celebrate the "Christian family" and enjoy fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is why evangelical Protestants practice an "open Communion" meaning that all who believe in Jesus as Savior are welcome to participate. And this is one reason why evangelicals will often be upset if Catholics don't participate because the evangelical Protestant Christian sees this as a rejection of Christian unity by the Catholic Christian. It is important for the Catholic Christian to explain to the Protestant Christian the reasons why they do not participate in non-Catholic Communion services, and that they do still believe that Christians are One in Christ.

This aspect of Communion, the "unitive" aspect, is a reason why some evangelical Protestant Communion services have a "celebration" feel to them.

Please keep in mind that "solemn" does not necessarily equate with "silent" or "quiet." In some denominations; e.g., the Pentecostal denominations, solemn moments are characterized by music, shouting, audible praying, groans, exclamations (e.g., Praise The Lord!), and sometimes even dancing. Many Catholics, especially many on CAF, seem to have a very narrow definition of "solemn" that doesn't allow for any kind of loud noise. But evangelicals would say that something can be solemn but joyful and celebratory at the same time. I would still say that, even though I have been Catholic since 2004.

Finally, a word about the alcohol issue. I've been Catholic for seven years now, and I still believe that alcohol is an evil thing and its use should be discouraged if not forbidden. I've read countless posts on CAF refuting my belief. I've talked to many Catholics in person. I've read articles and books in which Catholics defend alcohol use.

I don't buy any of it.

IMO, there is absolutely no reason to use a drug to enhance our pleasure in our lives here on this earth. God has given us many good things. Alcohol is not necessary to fully and passionately enjoy these things with all of our hearts and minds and souls. Alcohol actually prevents us from fully enjoying life because it is a drug and therefore alters our minds and emotions. We are not "real" when we are "under the influence." Yes, I have a problem with this--I think it's wrong for Christians to seek to be someone that they are not. It is a lie, and lying is sin.

And because alcohol has been part of so much addiction, health issues, death, family breakups, crimes, and societal misery, it seems wise and appropriate to me that Christians should assiduously avoid all association with something that has the "appearance of evil" that alcohol so clearly has. There is no need for a Christian to drink alcohol. We have been given all that we need for enjoyment without taking a chance and using something that is unnecessary for life and has so much potential to cause great harm.
__________________
  #57  
Old Mar 23, '11, 10:01 am
confusedius confusedius is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2011
Posts: 75
Religion: Christian Deist
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat View Post

I don't buy any of it.

IMO, there is absolutely no reason to use a drug to enhance our pleasure in our lives here on this earth. God has given us many good things. Alcohol is not necessary to fully and passionately enjoy these things with all of our hearts and minds and souls. Alcohol actually prevents us from fully enjoying life because it is a drug and therefore alters our minds and emotions. We are not "real" when we are "under the influence." Yes, I have a problem with this--I think it's wrong for Christians to seek to be someone that they are not. It is a lie, and lying is sin.

And because alcohol has been part of so much addiction, health issues, death, family breakups, crimes, and societal misery, it seems wise and appropriate to me that Christians should assiduously avoid all association with something that has the "appearance of evil" that alcohol so clearly has. There is no need for a Christian to drink alcohol. We have been given all that we need for enjoyment without taking a chance and using something that is unnecessary for life and has so much potential to cause great harm.

Well, Jesus didn't agree. Further, I consider wine one of the "many good things" God has given us. As to the health issue, it is now rather clear that there are major benefits to moderate consumption of alcohol.

And please forgive me, but I really disagree with the concept of the "appearancer of evil". Something either is, or is not, evil. Many evil things show no appearance of being evil. Many that do are not evil at all- perhaps misunderstood. Mouthwash seems like a good idea, for example, but can have more alcohol in it than wine.

The problem, to my mind, is not one of people "assiduously avoiding" wine. It is, rather, of people assiduously avoiding moderation...

james
  #58  
Old Mar 23, '11, 10:17 am
newconvert56 newconvert56 is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2011
Posts: 44
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erodelphian View Post
To say "protestants" believe is a dangerous thing. It's like thinking you know a culture after speaking to one member or one subset.
Yes that's is just one of the many reasons that I am returning to the RCC.
  #59  
Old Mar 23, '11, 10:50 am
JHow's Avatar
JHow JHow is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 1, 2010
Posts: 1,946
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

I was going to say many things, but Cat's post beat me to many of them. I came from a Campbellite church and she has pretty accurately described how I perceived these topics from that viewpoint.

I would add, to partly answer rinnie's question about "Why?" - communion is the rare example of Christ insitituting a specific ritual - whether you consider it symbol or real presence - I think that fact alone is enough for most Christians to rever the practice.

I would also add that, although theologically-speaking, the protestant church I belonged to as a child would not assent to the doctrine of the real presence, the phrase "mere symbol" does not adequately descibe their actual practice. Communion was considered the central part of the worship service, it usually came right in the middle of the service, it was held weekly, as Cat mentioned, "open", but with the admonition that "...let each examine himself, and so partake...", which implies consequences for receiving under false pretenses, or in an unworthy state, the bread must be un-leavened, the appropriate gospel texts were recited ("this is My body...", etc.)... If you asked me back then what was the most important thing about going to Church on Sunday - I would have answered: communion.

As for alcohol, anyone who doesn't drink at all has my respect. I don't think they are really missing a lot in life by taking that view. Personally, I'll have a beer now and then (Pilsner, please.), and wine at celebrations, and the occassional margarhita (Wow, I sound like boozer!).

I'll say one other thing... the strongest voice against over-drinking I ever heard from the pulpit came from a Roman Catholic priest in Warsaw at Easter Sunday, who, in the "oglosznenie duszpasterskie" (announcements) at the end of mass inserted a long-ish commentary on how "drunkeness has no place at the Easter table!". He commented that he knew many of us (congregation) were going to go home to eat and that alcohol would be there, but we would be best if we did not drink so much of it.
  #60  
Old Mar 23, '11, 1:40 pm
Gabriel of 12 Gabriel of 12 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 4, 2005
Posts: 4,682
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

All things God created are good, It is man who abuses them, alcohol in particular.

Wine has always been used in liturgies to worship God. The old covenant records volumes of pouring libations of wine over the sacrifices offered to God, including the consumption of fermented (blood of grapes) wine and eating of unleavened bread in the holy of holies. Wine is always used in the passover "seder" meal, and always used as a form of sacrifice unto God.

God does not change, man does. Jesus instituted the Eucharist with "wine" and unleavened bread to be consumed by the believer.

Man has changed what Christ commanded to "do this", to consume grape juice instead of wine.

I think it is good that protestants use grape juice to symbolize what Jesus did at calvary, because of their convictions of abuse of alcohol. They deny the true presence of Jesus blood and body from the cracker and grape juice, which they profess correctly. Because it is not the blood of Christ "confected" by the Word of God.

I think its fitting for them to do so, to remember what Jesus did at calvary so that the children can participate also, without the risk of breaking the law in giving alcohol to underage children.

From the first century christians it was not uncommon for underage children to drink wine at meals, especially Jewish feast days celebrated by Jews.

Today in the Roman Catholic rite, we can recieve the body and blood of Jesus in either the whole body of Christ (confected bread in the eucharist) or the blood from the confected wine, or both. In either substance we recieve the whole body, blood of Jesus Christ.

The difference here is, from the Catholic position, in the Eucharist, it is no longer "wine" that is consumed but the "True" body and blood of Jesus Christ, the wine has "transubstantiated" into the blood of Christ.

In summary the protestants can use grape juice because it is not believed to be the true body and blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ, only a picture, or symbol being used to reference what is recorded in the gospel at calvary from the first century. The eternal sacrifice that Jesus did once and for all is not being made present for the sins of the many.

Peace be with you
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8257Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5022CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: Vim71
4346Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: B79
3835SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3572Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3230Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3207Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Chast Forever
3139Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3049For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Thomas Choe



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 4:53 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.