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  #91  
Old Mar 29, '11, 9:59 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

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Originally Posted by Cat View Post
Not all alcoholics drink until they are drunk. And not all acts of alcohol abuse are alcoholism.
I was always taught that when People use alcohol as a means to escape it is what makes them a Alcoholic. It is thier way of coping with life, it is a means of escape and the buzz which they get is what helps them to forget or lets say escape. I was told that when a person is an alcoholic they cannot quit at one or two. They must have many. I was told it was the one or two that gets them going.

And I did believe that when a person continues to abuse alcohol that makes them a Alcoholic

I will admit I do not have much knowledge of it though. I do know there are what are called functioning alcoholic;s etc. But I always thought when a person was a Alcoholic they have to have it everyday. And usually all day.

While I agree that they may not always appear drunk it is because their body can just handle more. But the reason they still continue to drink it to escape from something.
  #92  
Old Mar 29, '11, 2:10 pm
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Anna Scott Anna Scott is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

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Originally Posted by veilofveronica View Post
Hi there,
I mean no disrespect to our Protestant friends with this question-I'm honestly curious. Why do many Protestant communion celebrations use grape juice instead of the wine that Catholics use? And why do many also use bread cubes/regular "bread" instead of the wafters (unleavened bread) that we use?

Thanks!
veilofveronica,

I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches and they strictly prohibited any form of alcohol. As many have already said, Baptists believe Baptism and The Lord's Supper are purely symbolic, so there is no concept of the "Real Presence" in the Eucharist. Either bread or tiny crackers are used instead of unleavened bread.

Sadly, if one wants to join a Southern Baptist Church, having been Baptized in a Church that views Baptism as sacramental or regenerate, were not immersed, or were not Baptized in a Church that embraces the doctrine of the "security of the believer"; they must be Baptized again in the Baptist Church.

What is so odd to me now, is that Baptists insist that, though Baptism is purely symbolic and is performed only for the regenerate believer in Christ; it must be done by immersion, because that is the Biblical way-the way Christ was Baptized. Yet, they completely disregard the way Christ instituted the Eucharist. It really doesn't make sense.

This is a quote from the Southern Baptist Convention website:

"The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12."

Link: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp


Notice in the list of Scripture passages cited to support their view of "The Lord's Supper"; John Chapter 6 is not cited.

Peace and blessings,
Anna
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  #93  
Old Apr 7, '11, 5:03 pm
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wbthrower wbthrower is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

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pismopal

Good answer. However, when I attend mass it seems that the priest finishes up the wine in the chalice beforr wiping the chalice.......
No Wine from the cup may be left over in the cup after all have recieved the Eucharist. If any remains, it must be consumed by the priest, deacon, or person that is giving it at that time in the Mass.
  #94  
Old Apr 8, '11, 6:51 am
newconvert56 newconvert56 is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

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But I always thought when a person was a Alcoholic they have to have it everyday. And usually all day.

.
I agree with much of what you said but this is not true. A couple drinks will usually be too many ("one drink is too many and one hundred drinks are not enough"), but until the later stages of alcoholism many alcoholics can go days, weeks or longer without drinking UNTIL they have that first drink again, then they are right back where they started. Even after years of abstinance an alcoholic picks up where they left off, needing as much alcohol to get a "buzz" as they did when they stopped. Yes, I do think there is a very strong genetic component to alcohol abuse, I've seen it first hand in my family and many others. Studies have shown that alcoholics process alcohol differently than non-alcoholics and that's why those prone to abuse will keep drinking when others would normally stop, an alcoholic does not understand a "normal" person who can have one or two drinks and truly be satisfied with that.

Last edited by newconvert56; Apr 8, '11 at 7:01 am.
  #95  
Old Apr 8, '11, 7:17 am
rinnie rinnie is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

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Originally Posted by newconvert56 View Post
I agree with much of what you said but this is not true. A couple drinks will usually be too many ("one drink is too many and one hundred drinks are not enough"), but until the later stages of alcoholism many alcoholics can go days, weeks or longer without drinking UNTIL they have that first drink again, then they are right back where they started. Even after years of abstinance an alcoholic picks up where they left off, needing as much alcohol to get a "buzz" as they did when they stopped. Yes, I do think there is a very strong genetic component to alcohol abuse, I've seen it first hand in my family and many others. Studies have shown that alcoholics process alcohol differently than non-alcoholics and that's why those prone to abuse will keep drinking when others would normally stop, an alcoholic does not understand a "normal" person who can have one or two drinks and truly be satisfied with that.
Okay I agree with what you are saying. But that was kind of like my point one or 2 is never enough, there is never enough. They can't quit at one or 2.

I think where we can agree is drinking becomes a sin like any other sin when the sin control's you, you don't control the sin.

And when you have anything control you and put it ahead of God it becomes a sin.

And I also agree addiction is a mystery. But again sin is really not a mystery because it is revealed in the way we live and God can conquer any sin. But the mystery is how sin is never the same for anyone. We all have sin and we all have to fight it everyday.

Just with a person who abuses Alcohol their sin is revealed to all to see. Where differnt sin can be hidden better.. Kind of makes you wonder who is the most lucky of the 2. At least when you sin is out there for all to see you can receive quicker. But when it is not revealed it gets even a stronger hold over you.

But I also never knew that they could go weeks w/o it. Thank-you for sharing that with me.
  #96  
Old Apr 9, '11, 7:38 am
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Miriam1947 Miriam1947 is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

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Originally Posted by rinnie View Post
Okay I agree with what you are saying. But that was kind of like my point one or 2 is never enough, there is never enough. They can't quit at one or 2.

I think where we can agree is drinking becomes a sin like any other sin when the sin control's you, you don't control the sin.

And when you have anything control you and put it ahead of God it becomes a sin.

And I also agree addiction is a mystery. But again sin is really not a mystery because it is revealed in the way we live and God can conquer any sin. But the mystery is how sin is never the same for anyone. We all have sin and we all have to fight it everyday.

Just with a person who abuses Alcohol their sin is revealed to all to see. Where differnt sin can be hidden better.. Kind of makes you wonder who is the most lucky of the 2. At least when you sin is out there for all to see you can receive quicker. But when it is not revealed it gets even a stronger hold over you.

But I also never knew that they could go weeks w/o it. Thank-you for sharing that with me.
So is an alcohol abuser a sinner or an addict?

I think you are forgetting the mercy of God here.
  #97  
Old Apr 15, '11, 4:17 pm
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Genovefa Genovefa is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

I didn't read the whole thread but I can answer this. I was raised Methodist. The main reason is because of prohibition. During prohibition, there was a Methodist bishop named Herbert George Welch. Some churches felt like they needed to come with a way to serve communion without the alcohol. Hence...Welch's Grape Juice. After prohibition, it just stuck. As far as I know, Protestant churches served wine before prohibition.

Many Protestant churches still serve wine. It is only Baptists, Methodists, and the evangelical non-denominations that serve grape juice. You will still find wine in Lutheran and Episcopalian churches.
  #98  
Old Apr 15, '11, 6:30 pm
Roy5 Roy5 is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

I believe the Methodists never used wine in communion, though I could be wrong. The 'General Rules' of John Wesley forbid the use of alcohol in any form long before Prohibition in the USA. Wesley had seen the negative impact of alcohol, especially among the poorer people (among whom Methodist initially had great appeal). so he condemned it entirely. He also was dead set against slavery, tobacco, etc. - long before the emancipation fervor.

As for Bishop Welch, I doubt if he had anything to do with Welch grapejuice, though I could be wrong. Among his main achievements was living to something like 106, going on a worldwide trip when he was 100, etc. He served for some years in the Far East - China and Korea, as I recall.

But it is true, I believe, that the Welch family was Methodist. I have a feeling that the Coca-Cola family was Methodist, too, and did a lot to endow Emory University, one of a couple hundred USA colleges and universities established by the Methodists - among them, for example, Duke, Syracuse. Boston U, Wesleyan, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and dozens more.

I have the highest respect for the Methodists, along with many other Christian groups. It troubles me that so often religion preaches love and peace while promoting bigotry and hostility. Christianity should be a bridge and not a barrier.
  #99  
Old Apr 16, '11, 8:17 am
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Genovefa Genovefa is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

I could be wrong Roy5. The above is just what I learned from my Methodist paster in a a class on the "Book of Discipline".

I would like to note however, that grape juice has to be pasteurized in order to remain non-alcoholic. This process is a relatively recent inventation, leading into the temperance movement of the late 1800s and early 1900s.
  #100  
Old Apr 16, '11, 8:35 am
Roy5 Roy5 is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

Just a quick PS.. Prohibition was bad and ineffective, leading to considerable crime.

However, temperance is a good thing. How many millions have had their lives severely injured - marital splits, economic woes, highway deaths, etc. - because they or someone else over-drank. And I have saved thousands of dollars over my lifetime abstaining from alcohol, some of which (money) I could share with others.

I don't stand in judgement of those who do imbibe, of course, and moderate drinking is fine - as long as it remains moderate. The problem develops when it escalates into an addiction, which it too often does. I've read that the USA has between 20-30 million alcoholics??? Maybe more.

One reason Methodists (and others) use grapejuice is to make communion available to all. There are those who try to remain 'on the wagon' but can revert to active alcoholism with even a thimble full of alcohol.

God bless everybody.
  #101  
Old Apr 16, '11, 5:12 pm
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Genovefa Genovefa is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

I agree. For all those who wonder why Protestants don't offer wine for communion, it does have a considerable amount to do with the temperance movement which many (especially Methodists) were very active in. Prohibition was sort of the culmination of this, but that was bad, of course.

These early congregations meant well, but unfortunately, like many things that begin with good intentions, it has become something else. Some churches now shun any type of alcohol and consider it a sin to partake at all. Verses that talk of wine in the Bible are interpreted as being "new" wine (grape juice that has not fermented). I personally have a big problem with this interpretation, especially where the wedding feast is concerned.

But I do wonder about those who are recovering alcoholics and whether having wine is too great a temptation for them. The wine at the Anglican churches is very sweet and would guess has a very low alcohol content. I don't see how anyone could have an issue with it.

Also some Protestant churches offer communion through small cups instead of using a common cup. So, one could get quite a bit more wine that way. I have never seen a Baptist church offer Lord's Supper in any other manner. And they usually pass the trays down the rows instead of going to the altar. I could never be a Baptist.

This is a personal interest of mine. I teach at a religious school who has students from all sort of church backgrounds and quite a bit of exposure to different beliefs about communion.

I might add that I used to routinely see the church secretary throwing the left over grape juice out the back door onto the dirt after communion. This is one reason I am no longer Methodist.
  #102  
Old Apr 16, '11, 5:32 pm
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

I just went back and read the thread. Most of what I posted was already stated. Sorry I was redundant.

The Methodist pastor who taught my "Book of Discipline" class was raised Catholic. And I actually went away from the class believing in transubstantiation (which is not the Protestant belief of course). He had to correct me later when it became apparent to him that I misunderstood.

But I think he had told us originally that the bread and wine became Jesus' body and blood during the service and then ceased to be afterwards.

I am still confused about what the view is in the Methodist church. But it is no matter.

I was once at an Anglican church where the priest chastised us all before Eucharist because people had been dropping bread on the floor and walking on it. He explained that the bread was Christ and we should be more respectful. He was very upset. So, it seems to me that they see it as more than symbolic.

Anyway, I would just beware of grouping all Protestants together.

I'll shut up now.
  #103  
Old Apr 16, '11, 6:42 pm
Roy5 Roy5 is offline
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Default Re: Why do many Protestant Churches use grape juice instead of wine for communion?

The Methodist Discipline contains 25 articles, borrowed from the 39 articles of the Anglicans. One of them strongly condemns transubstantiation. I don't have it at hand, but trust me on this one.

The Methodists, like Baptists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, etc., use little glasses for the distribution of the cup at communion. This avoids both denying the cup to the laity (as Catholicism formerly did) and also avoids the common cup which Anglican churches usually use. To many, use of the common chalice - everybody drinking, yes, even wine from the same chalice - is troublesome.

Methodists usually go to the altar rail to receive communion, though today intinction has become widespread among Methodists. (I am not favorable to that because I have seen people dip the bread into the chalice, and their fingers go in too far! Sorry!) Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, etc., usually commune in the pews. I have witnessed both ways that there are benefits to both. I'm quite sure Jesus doesn't care which way. It's our hearts that he looks at, not our rituals.

As for disposing of the bread, it can be eaten. Often ministers 'toss it outside' for the birds or other wandering wildlife. I see no problem with that. In fact, I regard it as good.

Methodists vary - somewhat like Episcopalians do - from those who resemble Episcopalians to those who resemble Baptists. In places like Canada and Australia, Methodists, Congregationalists, and Presbyterians have merged.

I try to love them all. I do have a little problem, frankly, with any church which claims that it alone teaches the truth, and everyone else is in error. I suspect that we all are in error because this miraculous universe is far beyond our human understanding. The Bible tells us to walk by faith and not sight, and I try my best to do that. I suspect heaven will be full of people of all religions who tried to live as Christ commanded. See the parable of the Good Samaritan, or re-read Matt. 25:31ff.

Religion should be a bridge and not a barrier!
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