IVF after cancer w pre-cancer sperm

[KCT]

Originally Posted by ClamDigger

Yes, the child still deserves to be loved. That does not mean that his conception is morally acceptable. Children are also born from pre-marital sex and one-night-stands. That doesn't make them undeserving of love. However, the way in which they were conceived is still sinful in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

OP: "A friend has gone through extensive chemo and radiation after a cancer diagnosis. After diagnosis but before treatment he froze sperm and he has just announced his wife is pregnant after being inseminated. They are thrilled and I am uncertain on the church's teaching under these circumstances."

It's not morally acceptable, but it's over and done with. Can't take it back. It seems to me the OP is unsure about how to react to the joy of the parents. Is she supposed to act unhappy about a new little soul?

[heart4home]

Originally Posted by heart4home

Yes it's the same thing as homosexuality, divorce, adultery etc. etc. Just because an individuals/church's beliefs don't speak out against them, doesn't make them wrong.

Of course that should have been right, not wrong....

[1ke]

Whether or not the people involved are Catholic is not relevant.

Moral offenses are not relative. They are absolute. IVF is objectively wrong. It violates the Sixth Commandment.

What offends God offends Him regardless of whether the person knows it is wrong or believes it is wrong.

We can't call anyone "sinner" because we don't know if all the criteria are met-- full knowledge and free will. We can certainly identify grave matter and we can identify when an objectively grave act has been committed.

[ChiRho]

Originally Posted by Serap

get a sense of humor my friend! have you heard of comic relief?

Of course I've heard of it - I just don't think it appropriate to have comic relief when discussing questions of morality, and notice that you've still not justified your statement to "not focus" on what the Church teaches.

[Alix1912]

One thing everyone is missing here. Sin also often requires intent. If these people were never taught that invitro was wrong, because they either have no faith background or a backround that doesn't teach that it is totally different than an educated Catholic saying to heck with what my church teaches I'm doing this anyway. Both are sins, but one is a sin of not knowing the other is blatant disobedience.

Also it is a little unfair to hold someone who is not your denomination to the rules of your particular denomination. I know that other denominations frown on IVF, but I think only the Catholics outright condemn it. Comparing that to adultery and homosexuality which are condemned in many faiths is a little different.

Also it is easy for us to judge who have never been faced with infertility. Having watched my mom live through it, it is heart wrenching. Especially when people who have no trouble getting pregnant tell you "It's just God's plan for you to not have any more kids". I'm not nessecarily condoning what they did but at this point the way forward is to celebrate the life that is coming into this world and move on.

If the OP appraoches the friend with the attittude of "you evil sinner" then it will just destroy their friendship.

[Victorious]

Originally Posted by heart4home

It will be sad if one of the ones implanted doesn't make it, but just remember that 1 in 4 babies created the "old fashioned way' doesn't make it either, so try not to look at that part as part of the consequence of IVF. Now the other unused embryos, that's where you need to feel sad:-(

Yes, some human beings created the old fashioned way don't make it to childbed. But at least that is a matter entirely in God's hands, and (all things being equal) nobody is offending Him.

Originally Posted by KCT

It's not morally acceptable, but it's over and done with. Can't take it back. It seems to me the OP is unsure about how to react to the joy of the parents. Is she supposed to act unhappy about a new little soul?

Set aside for the moment the existence of the new little soul. The appropriate response to sin is grief: grief that God has been offended. Too often, however, our response is to celebrate it, or to give ourselves virtuous airs and look down on the sinner.

[ClamDigger]

Originally Posted by KCT

OP: "A friend has gone through extensive chemo and radiation after a cancer diagnosis. After diagnosis but before treatment he froze sperm and he has just announced his wife is pregnant after being inseminated. They are thrilled and I am uncertain on the church's teaching under these circumstances."

It's not morally acceptable, but it's over and done with. Can't take it back. It seems to me the OP is unsure about how to react to the joy of the parents.

How do you get that from what she said? She merely stated that she is uncertain about Church teaching in this situation. Church teaching on IVF (in this and all situations) is that IVF is a sinful method of conception for Catholics. Just as fornication and adultery are sinful methods of conceiving.

Originally Posted by KCT

Is she supposed to act unhappy about a new little soul?

No. Of course not. I have an unmarried sister who is going to have a baby within a few weeks. I couldn't be more excited to see my new little nephew! However, that does not mean that the way in which she conceived her son wasn't sinful.
As a matter of fact, my sister was also conceived out of wedlock! Her conception was sinful. That doesn't change the way I view her (or my mother or father, for that matter) in the slightest. However, the method of her conception was still sinful and I'm not going to sugar-coat it.

[heart4home]

Originally Posted by Alix1912

One thing everyone is missing here. Sin also often requires intent. If these people were never taught that invitro was wrong, because they either have no faith background or a backround that doesn't teach that it is totally different than an educated Catholic saying to heck with what my church teaches I'm doing this anyway. Both are sins, but one is a sin of not knowing the other is blatant disobedience.

Also it is a little unfair to hold someone who is not your denomination to the rules of your particular denomination. I know that other denominations frown on IVF, but I think only the Catholics outright condemn it. Comparing that to adultery and homosexuality which are condemned in many faiths is a little different.

Also it is easy for us to judge who have never been faced with infertility. Having watched my mom live through it, it is heart wrenching. Especially when people who have no trouble getting pregnant tell you "It's just God's plan for you to not have any more kids". I'm not nessecarily condoning what they did but at this point the way forward is to celebrate the life that is coming into this world and move on.

If the OP appraoches the friend with the attittude of "you evil sinner" then it will just destroy their friendship.

I agree with what you say about intent and knowledge. I also believe that this baby should be welcomed and loved and the OP should really not say much at this point as what would it serve at this point, but to bring negativity to a joyful time in their lives. Perhaps a time will come when she can share, but personally I wouldn't do it now.

However, I do think the comparisons I made were relevant in so much as more and more denominations teach about "God's Love" only and not much else from the pulpit. Sins are overlooked. The message of " morality" including things like homosexuality and adultery and divorce etc. is left for each to discern on their own. Remember with IVF(which I still think this sounded more like IUI but I don't think the OP ever came back to clarify), there would likely be little lives destroyed. To gloss over that sin, just because a Church doesn't teach it, is wrong. The Bible is there for all. It doesn't take a PHD to see that destroying embryos to make life is still destroying embryos which were life.

Of course this vague teaching is even becoming more common in the "Catholic Church" as well and individuals are left to dig through the CCC and figure it all out for themselves often times(or come to forums like this and ask questions) what the Church really holds to be truth because we must not judge or offend as people might just leave.

[ClamDigger]

Originally Posted by Alix1912

One thing everyone is missing here. Sin also often requires intent. If these people were never taught that invitro was wrong, because they either have no faith background or a backround that doesn't teach that it is totally different than an educated Catholic saying to heck with what my church teaches I'm doing this anyway. Both are sins, but one is a sin of not knowing the other is blatant disobedience.

She asked specifically from the view of the Catholic Church. In the Catholic Church, it is considered a sin to use IVF. She didn't ask if they had sinned. That would require more information. She just asked what the Catholic Church's view is, for Catholics, in this case.
In some parts of North-Eastern India, women marry multiple men. If someone asked me, "I have a friend from North-East India who has five husbands because it's a part of her culture. In this specific instance, because it's her culture, how does the Church feel about this?" I would tell her, "Polygamy is regarded as sinful by the Catholic Church." That does not mean that the woman from North-East India has commited a sin, however, her action is still sinful within the purview of the Catholic Church.

Originally Posted by Alix1912

Also it is a little unfair to hold someone who is not your denomination to the rules of your particular denomination. I know that other denominations frown on IVF, but I think only the Catholics outright condemn it. Comparing that to adultery and homosexuality which are condemned in many faiths is a little different.

She asked specifically what the Church's view of IVF was. She didn't ask what the Church's view of Methodists who use IVF is. She asked what the Church's general view of IVF is, and the Church's general view of IVF is that it is a sinful method of conception.
Also, fornication and homosexuality are not condemned by all faiths either. I suppose we should just keep quiet when asked about Church teaching on those because "not every religion believes that it's a sin"??

Originally Posted by Alix1912

If the OP appraoches the friend with the attittude of "you evil sinner" then it will just destroy their friendship.

How do you get that view at all from what she asked? She merely asked a question. She didn't say, "And I don't know how I should treat them now because I know that IVF is considered a sinful method of conception by the Church." That would be looking down on them with the attitude of "you evil sinner." She simply asked what the Church's view was of IVF in this situation.

[Serap]

So my SIL's embryos have already been frozen. Well then I hope that if she has a baby this time around, then she will try to have another baby with the frozen embryos too.

What's done is done and those babies are waiting for a chance at life.

[ClamDigger]

Originally Posted by Serap

So my SIL's embryos have already been frozen. Well then I hope that if she has a baby this time around, then she will try to have another baby with the frozen embryos too.

What's done is done and those babies are waiting for a chance at life.

And hopefully every single embryo is implanted, just as a child conceived in fornication or adultery should not be aborted... that still doesn't make fornication and adultery morally acceptable methods of conception to Catholics.

[heart4home]

Originally Posted by Victorious

Yes, some human beings created the old fashioned way don't make it to childbed. But at least that is a matter entirely in God's hands, and (all things being equal) nobody is offending Him.

At this point, the baby's that have been implanted are entirely in God's hands. Just because us humans make a mess of things, doesn't mean God can't use it for good. He tells us in His word that He can and will.

IVF is wrong according to Church teaching for two reasons. It creates life that may never get a chance to grow inside it's mother's womb and therefore destroys life AND it takes away the unitive part of marriage relations. At this point extra grief over one of the babies that was implanted and doesn't make it is not necessary. Grief for the couples loss of the gifts of unity, would have already been expressed by this time from anybody who is aware.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be typical sadness at the loss of life of course. That sadness is usually held more towards the parents than the child, since I'm sure most would assume it was God's will for that baby.

Those babies are in God's hands at this point. God often chooses to let IVF babies live, thrive and grow. It is ENTIRELY in HIS HANDS NOW.

Grief over the embryos that will never get a chance at implanting or a chance for God to make them into all they could be, is most defintely something we should feel and is in need of our prayers.

[Serap]

Originally Posted by ClamDigger

And hopefully every single embryo is implanted, just as a child conceived in fornication or adultery should not be aborted... that still doesn't make fornication and adultery morally acceptable methods of conception to Catholics.

or to anyone for that matter.

[Serap]

Originally Posted by heart4home

At this point, the baby's that have been implanted are entirely in God's hands. Just because us humans make a mess of things, doesn't mean God can't use it for good. He tells us in His word that He can and will.

IVF is wrong according to Church teaching for two reasons. It creates life that may never get a chance to grow inside it's mother's womb and therefore destroys life AND it takes away the unitive part of marriage relations. At this point extra grief over one of the babies that was implanted and doesn't make it is not necessary. Grief for the couples loss of the gifts of unity, would have already been expressed by this time from anybody who is aware.

I'm not saying there wouldn't be typical sadness at the loss of life of course. That sadness is usually held more towards the parents than the child, since I'm sure most would assume it was God's will for that baby.

Those babies are in God's hands at this point. God often chooses to let IVF babies live, thrive and grow. It is ENTIRELY in HIS HANDS NOW.

Grief over the embryos that will never get a chance at implanting or a chance for God to make them into all they could be, is most defintely something we should feel and is in need of our prayers.

Agreed. I'm sure my SIL will want to use the frozen embryos to try for a second baby if they are successful the first time. If they are unsuccessful, then they will for sure use the frozen embryos to try a second time.

[Victorious]

Originally Posted by ClamDigger

And hopefully every single embryo is implanted, just as a child conceived in fornication or adultery should not be aborted... that still doesn't make fornication and adultery morally acceptable methods of conception to Catholics.

Trouble is, you can't implant those embryos without commiting yet more grave sins. There is simply no moral solution to the problem of frozen embryos, as John Paul II said.