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  #61  
Old Apr 1, '11, 8:12 am
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
Its a weak argument when we talk new-born/mother and critical birth situations. The fact is those are "very" rare and abortion has become the mean's of Birth Control country wide and is an abomination. So lets cut to the chase and get to the point.

Heroin is legal for medical use in many countrys, but they are not handing it out Planned Herion centers throughtout the world thus giving it a the pubilc nod.

Doesn't much matter what you think about when the baby was actually conceived, be already by God as in the LDS thinking or during the first/last trimester. The problem is we have came an empase where what was once used as a medical procedure in extremely rare situations.

Its now used as a convienent means of correcting a problem/mistake made by an adult? Or by kids who decided it was OK to act out their immoral, sexual, inadequate, mickey mouse feelings. Used by prostitutes and escorts to promote their negative lifestyle. And those insane choices result in a abomination straight out of hell. Those who chose to interact in a promiscuous lifestyle or allow these feeling's to control their better thinking are simply responsible for their mistakes.

When we reach a point when people understand that for every play-day there's a pay-day, then they won't be so quick to act off their feelings and will begin to think the process through and see the end result.

The thought of "Oh well I'll just have an abortion" has become as common as "Oh well I'll have a Bic Mac for lunch". Another issue which compounds the problem is a large majority of those who quickly make this choice also then burden the country with their therapy, to now deal with the newly created feelings. Which are not mickey mouse and take a great deal of work to come to terms with.

We've gone way over the edge of rational thinking and its not a religious issue at all, I have little concern what your faith thinks or doesn't. The bottom line is its wrong and we've taken a procedure which may used in a positive sense and turned it into an abomination, and thats the Truth regardless of the majority or your faith accepting it or not, it still remains the Truth.

Now, as we take "EMERGENY MEDICAL" off the tabel who thinks now this is right thing to uphold and shoud be legalized morality?

Weak arguments to say the least, to promote insanity.

God Bless, Gary
Based on your argument, I hope you're also against guns, because there are plenty of "wackos" who find ways of getting hold of these instruments of death and harming people. And you should also be against the sale of alcohol: kids and adults get drunk, get behind the wheel, and kill others as well as themselves. Not premeditated murder, rather vehicular homicide, but maiming and killing nonetheless. Are you against the sale of guns and alcohol as well? You see where I'm going: outlawing abortion completely, as outlawing the purchase of guns and alcohol, penalizes those who act responsibly. I'm not at all sure we want to have laws that ban certain things based on their potential or real misuse. That would mean the abusers and criminals are in effect controlling our legal system and limiting our rights as law-abiding citizens.
  #62  
Old Apr 1, '11, 8:28 am
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Mumbles140 Mumbles140 is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
You see where I'm going: outlawing abortion completely, as outlawing the purchase of guns and alcohol, penalizes those who act responsibly.
How exactly can one murder responsibly?
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  #63  
Old Apr 1, '11, 8:54 am
Sufjon Sufjon is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
Based on your argument, I hope you're also against guns, because there are plenty of "wackos" who find ways of getting hold of these instruments of death and harming people. And you should also be against the sale of alcohol: kids and adults get drunk, get behind the wheel, and kill others as well as themselves. Not premeditated murder, rather vehicular homicide, but maiming and killing nonetheless. Are you against the sale of guns and alcohol as well? You see where I'm going: outlawing abortion completely, as outlawing the purchase of guns and alcohol, penalizes those who act responsibly. I'm not at all sure we want to have laws that ban certain things based on their potential or real misuse. That would mean the abusers and criminals are in effect controlling our legal system and limiting our rights as law-abiding citizens.
I am all for outlawing guns!

Your friend
Sufjon
  #64  
Old Apr 1, '11, 9:41 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by Sufjon View Post
I am all for outlawing guns!

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I agree. How about the its my body debate?
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  #65  
Old Apr 1, '11, 10:06 am
sedonaman sedonaman is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by GaryTaylor View Post
I agree. How about the its my body debate?
A phony argument. There are other laws regarding what you cannot do with your body: You cannot sell it; you cannot take illegal drugs; you cannot be drunk in public, e.g.
  #66  
Old Apr 1, '11, 10:08 am
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by Sufjon View Post
I am all for outlawing guns!

Your friend
Sufjon
As a liberal and progressive, I should be too, and I do believe that fewer guns in the hands of the public are better, just as I believe that abortions should be rare and not a form of birth control. Most police officers--especially those who work in urban environments--support this view regarding guns. Still, I also realize that in certain circumstances--such as for hunting for sport (which is forbidden according to Judaic Law, by the way) or in the case of those business owners who work in high-crime neighborhoods--there may be some justification, which can be determined on a case-by-case basis. And in certain parts of the US, it is part of the cultural heritage to carry guns. Admittedly, the latter reason is perhaps the weakest, and yet....Alcohol is another issue; there was once a prohibition in the US, but social norms against the ban were too strong. The whole issue concerning illegal and prescription drugs is really subject for another thread. My point, however, is that one might want to think long and hard about the consequences of enacting a COMPLETE BAN on guns, alcohol, or abortions.

Last edited by meltzerboy; Apr 1, '11 at 10:10 am. Reason: Word Change.
  #67  
Old Apr 1, '11, 10:18 am
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by Mumbles140 View Post
How exactly can one murder responsibly?
The whole point of some of us (the LDS poster, Sufjon, and others) is that our religions do not define abortion as murder under all circumstances. This is a religious freedom issue as much as an issue of morality.
  #68  
Old Apr 1, '11, 10:41 am
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Mumbles140 Mumbles140 is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
The whole point of some of us (the LDS poster, Sufjon, and others) is that our religions do not define abortion as murder under all circumstances. This is a religious freedom issue as much as an issue of morality.
It's a science issue about whether it is a human being. I don't know how you would classify a living thing with human dna and a developing human body, but to me, it's a human, and whether you believe it has a soul attached or not does not matter because there is a clear definition of murder, and it doesn't involve whether or not a human has a soul.
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  #69  
Old Apr 1, '11, 10:59 am
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by Sufjon View Post
The question has everything to do with that Steve. You are saying to take away the choice. YOU have the choice to watch your child die once he's alive on his or her own. We are talking about taking that choice away from pregnant women. The law won't let you die for your 6 year old. You can pledge to do it all day, but you know the law won;t let you by medical procedure kill yourself to save your child. It just will not allow it. I'm sure you know that. Sure, you can jump out in front of a car to save her, but the law will not let a hospital kill you to save her even if you yourself only had a minute left to live anyway. That is the law in the US. Tell me why then should a hospital be allowed to aid and abet a woman in killing herself to save an unborn child? Even more so, why should a hospital be forced to kill her? Let's not avoid the issue. This is exactly what is being suggested in the case where a woman's life is seriously threatened. This is why letting religion play a role in public policy is dangerous. I've seen that denied on this very website, but history is history. I consider myself a religious person, but I know there are zealots and zealots are often dangerous. This is why religion should be strictly an ornamental agency in regards to secular affairs. They should be allowed to blab all day, but never make public policy or legal decisions. That's why they have websites like this one. So folks like us can blab at each other, rather than make decisions for other people to live by.

Your friend
Sufjon
Let me be very blunt. No, a woman should not have the choice to kill her unborn baby. It is a human life which should be afforded all the protections that other human life is given. Why should a mother have a choice to kill her unborn child? If she is in a position of saving her life or saving her child's life she should have the choice, as grim as that choice may be. No one is asking the hospital to kill the mother. They should do all they can to save both. But if that choice arises, the mother should always be allowed to choose the life of her child above her own.

We are speaking of an intrinsic evil and religious views should be as valid here as they are with murder, robbery or any other grave crime. Morality is what our laws, for the most part, are based upon.
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  #70  
Old Apr 1, '11, 11:02 am
z0wb13 z0wb13 is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by Mumbles140 View Post
It's a science issue about whether it is a human being. I don't know how you would classify a living thing with human dna and a developing human body, but to me, it's a human, and whether you believe it has a soul attached or not does not matter because there is a clear definition of murder, and it doesn't involve whether or not a human has a soul.
this isn't true. a fetus has none of the qualities that are generally attributed to a human. the potential to become something does not qualify it as being that thing. that's why vegetarians can eat eggs but not chickens. that's why furniture is made out of trees, not seeds.

it is a religious sentiment that attempts to define an embryo as a human being. so, how can another person's religious perspective be used to make the laws?
  #71  
Old Apr 1, '11, 11:09 am
dusty david dusty david is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by Mumbles140 View Post
It's a science issue about whether it is a human being. I don't know how you would classify a living thing with human dna and a developing human body, but to me, it's a human, and whether you believe it has a soul attached or not does not matter because there is a clear definition of murder, and it doesn't involve whether or not a human has a soul.
If abortion is murder, then what penalties should apply? I think I posted elsewhere that first degree murder charges apply to people who hire contract killers too. Just because the mother does not perform the abortion herself does not mean she is just a bystander. Rather, she paid for the abortion and is just as guilty as the doctor who performed it. Therefore first degree murder charges apply for this killer for her premeditated murder.

I bring up this topic of legal punishments because there seems to be a real reluctance here to discuss the next step after outlawing abortions. Abortion is murder. Then treat women who get abortions as the criminals they are. Can't outlaw something without giving legal sanctions.

And if the women who abort are not charged with murder, tried, and convicted, then legally abortion is not murder. It's something else. And if something else, what is it?
  #72  
Old Apr 1, '11, 11:13 am
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Mumbles140 Mumbles140 is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by z0wb13 View Post
this isn't true. a fetus has none of the qualities that are generally attributed to a human. the potential to become something does not qualify it as being that thing. that's why vegetarians can eat eggs but not chickens. that's why furniture is made out of trees, not seeds.

it is a religious sentiment that attempts to define an embryo as a human being. so, how can another person's religious perspective be used to make the laws?
Ok, let me fill you in some some farm life - you don't eat fertilized eggs. Every egg is inspected, and if it has a little red spot floating in it, you leave it to hatch. Vegetarians eat eggs because the eggs we eat are not living.

And it isn't religious sentiment. How would you define a living being, with an active heart beat, that is human DNA, human flesh, and human blood?
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  #73  
Old Apr 1, '11, 11:18 am
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Mumbles140 Mumbles140 is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

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Originally Posted by dusty david View Post
If abortion is murder, then what penalties should apply? I think I posted elsewhere that first degree murder charges apply to people who hire contract killers too. Just because the mother does not perform the abortion herself does not mean she is just a bystander. Rather, she paid for the abortion and is just as guilty as the doctor who performed it. Therefore first degree murder charges apply for this killer for her premeditated murder.

I bring up this topic of legal punishments because there seems to be a real reluctance here to discuss the next step after outlawing abortions. Abortion is murder. Then treat women who get abortions as the criminals they are. Can't outlaw something without giving legal sanctions.

And if the women who abort are not charged with murder, tried, and convicted, then legally abortion is not murder. It's something else. And if something else, what is it?
There's the case in Indiana, I believe, of the woman who was pregnant and willingly took rat poison. Her child was born, severely ill, and died 3 days later. The woman is being charged with murder, as well she should. Her direct actions caused the death of her child. Now, what about if the child died 3 days before she was supposed to give birth? Is the child not still fully formed, fully human? It was the same actions, and should receive the same punishment.
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  #74  
Old Apr 1, '11, 11:25 am
Glennonite Glennonite is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

so my question isn't on whether or not abortion is a sin. rather, i want to know is if it is ever alright to force one person's beliefs on another person, and why or under what circumstances.[/quote]


It doesn't have to have anything about the woman's morality. In a sense, I'm not worried about her so much as the life of her child. I wouldn't be worried about the murderer's soul as much as the victim's life.

As for abortions, I'm OK with an abortion so long as the child survives healthy. Maybe someday medical science will be able to remove the child in a viable state...but that's not really the point of an abortion, is it? The purpose is to be rid of an "inconveniace".
  #75  
Old Apr 1, '11, 11:38 am
Glennonite Glennonite is offline
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Default Re: legislating morality

""And if the women who abort are not charged with murder, tried, and convicted, then legally abortion is not murder. It's something else. And if something else, what is it?""

OK then; let just work backwards then. The born child is human, right? Go back ten minutes before the birth; is it a human then? Yes? Ok, how about ten days earlier? Yes?

At what MOMENT, size, weight, number of cells, appearance, (whatever!) is it no longer human? Who decides? The doctor? The mother?

And what if we're wrong? This is a human we're talking about. Do you think God will just say, "It's OK, the doctors said 28 weeks and 8 seconds, so you couldn't have known any better."

WHAT IF..we're wrong? Murder; at least from the child's point of view.
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