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  #1  
Old Apr 7, '11, 9:48 am
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Abyssinia Abyssinia is offline
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Default Refuting Ray Hagins claims

How are these claims made by Ray Hagins refuted?

Dr. Ray Hagins wrote in his article entitled The Truth of the Historical Jesus & the Mythological Christ, "Historically speaking, my research Jewish literature has revealed to me that approximately 100 years B.C.E., there was a person named Jeshua Ben-Pandira, whose who was a “bastard” (illegitimate) child. His mother was named Mary. His father, named whose name was Joseph Pandira, lived next door to Mary."

"One night he came home drunk and encountered Mary and raped her. She conceived and according to so-called Jewish custom would have been put to death, but the man that she was engaged to (Joseph Ben Stada) married her to take away her reproach. Because this child was conceived in such a manner and was therefore seen as a “bastard child;” Joseph Ben Stada took his wife, Mary, and her son Jeshua and moved to Egypt where this child received his education."
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  #2  
Old Apr 7, '11, 10:42 am
Reepicheep Reepicheep is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

1) Where is the evidence for these claims?
What documents contain these accounts, who wrote them, and where may I find them to read for myself?
What evidence is there that the sources are trustworthy?

2) If true, so what? Some people with superficially similar names to those of the Holy Family were involved in some unpleasant events, about a hundred years before the birth of Christ. What is this supposed to prove?
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  #3  
Old Apr 7, '11, 10:43 am
thirddec thirddec is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

http://benstanhope.blogspot.com/2010...ay-hagins.html
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  #4  
Old Apr 7, '11, 11:11 am
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Abyssinia Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reepicheep View Post
1) Where is the evidence for these claims?
What documents contain these accounts, who wrote them, and where may I find them to read for myself?
What evidence is there that the sources are trustworthy?

2) If true, so what? Some people with superficially similar names to those of the Holy Family were involved in some unpleasant events, about a hundred years before the birth of Christ. What is this supposed to prove?
I think this is what Ray Hagins is reffering to, but I am not sure:

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html
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  #5  
Old Apr 7, '11, 11:13 am
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Spencerian Spencerian is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abyssinia View Post
How are these claims made by Ray Hagins refuted?

Dr. Ray Hagins wrote in his article entitled The Truth of the Historical Jesus & the Mythological Christ, "Historically speaking, my research Jewish literature has revealed to me that approximately 100 years B.C.E., there was a person named Jeshua Ben-Pandira, whose who was a “bastard” (illegitimate) child. His mother was named Mary. His father, named whose name was Joseph Pandira, lived next door to Mary."

"One night he came home drunk and encountered Mary and raped her. She conceived and according to so-called Jewish custom would have been put to death, but the man that she was engaged to (Joseph Ben Stada) married her to take away her reproach. Because this child was conceived in such a manner and was therefore seen as a “bastard child;” Joseph Ben Stada took his wife, Mary, and her son Jeshua and moved to Egypt where this child received his education."
Hi.

The best way to refute them isn't by "attacking" the source.

If you know of a friend or neighbor influenced by Hagins's writings (which, from this black Catholic's POV, smacks of revisionist Black liberal theology), then charitably show the historicity of the Church and of the Bible through many resources, free and otherwise, from CA.

The key that derails Mr. Hagins's train of thought is: "If Christ were a lunatic, Mr. Hagins, then he has perpetuated a brainwashing fraud so vast and powerful that even you have bothered to give it credence."

That, and thousands of people over the years followed that "lunatic," devoutly, even to death. That, alone, is against the natural human need for self-preservation--unless Christ wasn't a lunatic and people who followed believed because they saw and told many others later.

If you haven't friends or family affected by Hagins, do not give this false teacher any more of your time. There are more important things to do.
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  #6  
Old Apr 8, '11, 11:46 am
artsippo artsippo is offline
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Thumbs down Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

The claim that Jesus was actually born @100 BC is a common charge among Jewish anti-Christians. The story this Hagins fellow is spouting is based on the Toledoth Yeshu which is a medieval Jewish attack on the integrity of Christ. There is no historical evidence to support it. The Talmud speaks of a person or persons named Yeshua in some disparaging tones but it is not clear if he is our Jesus or some other fellow with the same name. (Jesus was about as common a name in ancient Israel as George is today.)

The life of Christ has been one of the most scrutinized events in human history. There is no reason to think that Jesus Christ was born 100 years earlier than the Bible says. I would ignore this guy.

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  #7  
Old Apr 8, '11, 2:29 pm
tiffinwood tiffinwood is offline
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Smile Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Amen!!! As my father used to say. Don't add dignity to their ignorance by acknowledging it.
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  #8  
Old Apr 8, '11, 4:35 pm
StrawberryJam StrawberryJam is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Is this the guy who started the prosperity movement/gospel?
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  #9  
Old Apr 9, '11, 1:54 pm
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Miriam1947 Miriam1947 is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by artsippo View Post
(Jesus was about as common a name in ancient Israel as George is today.)

Art Sippo
Source please?
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  #10  
Old Apr 9, '11, 2:42 pm
frnate frnate is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriam1947 View Post
Source please?
I found this by googling "survey of jewish names" http://yeshuaincontext.com/2011/03/j...lee-and-judea/ overall it looked pretty reliable at least as it pertains to your question. I haven't looked at the source material.

++N
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  #11  
Old Apr 13, '11, 10:31 am
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Miriam1947 Miriam1947 is offline
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Default Re: Refuting Ray Hagins claims

Quote:
Originally Posted by frnate View Post
I found this by googling "survey of jewish names" http://yeshuaincontext.com/2011/03/j...lee-and-judea/ overall it looked pretty reliable at least as it pertains to your question. I haven't looked at the source material.

++N
Thanks, very interesting.
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