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  #166  
Old Jul 6, '12, 6:22 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjkp777 View Post
Hi Granny, thank you but my position is for others to see the dangers in the Charismatic Renewal movement and to view alleged "gifts" with skepticism. Fr. Hardon states from the link from an earlier post"

http://www.therealpresence.org/archi...antism_002.htm

"Epilogue

There are those who say we should just allow the Pentecostal movement to go on and then see what happens. But that is not in the best tradition of Christian prudence. If, as I personally believe, latter-day Pentecostalism is in the same essential stream with Gnosticism, Montanism, and Illuminism, we do not pass moral judgment on people but prudential judgment on an ideology if we say all that I have said in this lecture.

There are grave needs in the Church today - of which the gravest is the urgent recovery of prayer across the spectrum of Catholic living - among bishops, priests, religious and the laity.

But if prayer and the experience of God’s presence are so urgently needed, we must use the means that centuries old Christian wisdom has shown are securely effective to satisfy this need. Pentecostalism is not one of these means.

John A. Hardon, S.J.

Lecture given at the
Annual Conference for the Clergy,
Archdiocese of New York,
April 20-21, 1971."


Please, please, please, please, please........ Look at the purpose of this piece from Father Hardon.

The date is April 20-21 1971, the dates for a Conference for the Clergy. Its purpose is for those clergy members (at that point in time) to look at the reality of Pentecostalism, known as the third force in Christianity. Father also mentioned the reality of 2nd century Montanism. How can one confuse Pentecostalism and Montanism with the 21st century Catholic Charismatic Renewal which by the way, back in the 1970's, did follow the advice of Father Hardon.

If there is anyone interested in knowing about the two Holy Spirit Gifts which use tongues, I will be happy to answer sincere, genuine questions. If there are serious questions about abuses of these gifts in any Charismatic gathering, I will be happy to explain them.
  #167  
Old Jul 6, '12, 8:58 pm
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

That SSPX link is too long for me to post but it sure has a great deal of information.... specifically how the Charismatic "Renewal" movement originated... This Renewal is from Pentecostalism... Praying in Tongues, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, etc... The gifts were for Apostolic times... not today's.... But if you think you have the any charismatic gift that the Apostles had... I respectfully would ask that you pray about that lest you think you are at the same "level" so to speak.

This Charismatic movement which was supposed to Renew has instead divided and confused the faithful.. Please show me how this "Renewal" movement has united the faithful of the Catholic Church. The fruits have been division and confusion.

Thank you and good night.

Last edited by jjkp777; Jul 6, '12 at 9:10 pm.
  #168  
Old Jul 6, '12, 9:05 pm
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

On second thought, I might as well post an excerpt:

http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/ca...ic_renewal.htm

BRIEF HISTORY OF THE MOVEMENT

Protestant Roots

However much the Charismatics try to trace their overt manifestations of "the Spirit" to an unbroken Apostolic tradition, they are bound to fail. Some concede that the early phenomena ceased because of the "stifling" attitude of the hierarchy. Nonetheless, the fact that the charismata were not known to exist after the Apostolic Age is demonstrated by this statement of St. Augustine’s, made in the fourth century:

Who in our day expects that those on whom hands are laid so that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith speak with tongues....These signs were adapted to the times. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Spirit in all tongues to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all the tongues over the earth. But that thing was done for the betokening, and it has passed away.5

With the Apostolic tradition of the charismata ruled out, one must look elsewhere for the origin of these modern phenomena. Most writers trace the beginning of modern Pentecostalism to John Wesley, the famed ex-Anglican minister and founder of Methodism, in the 18th century. Wesley, himself the son of an Anglican minister, grew up trying to "spiritualize" the still-too-"Catholic" Anglican religion. He stressed a strongly emotional personal piety, a "personal relationship" with God. One day, after a long illness, Wesley felt an overwhelming manifestation of the "Spirit" and realized that all of his former religious works had been as so much rubbish. Thus "empowered," baptized in the Holy Spirit, having received his "second blessing," as he called it, he was able to go out and win the cold-hearted Anglican masses of nominal Christians to a deeper sense of the presence of God through his Methodist "prayer meetings."

The parallel between the birth of Methodism and the origins of the CCR becomes even more apparent when one considers the next step in the development of the former. Wesley began his movement as a supplement to the Anglican Church’s Sunday worship. The prayer meetings were held, usually with clerical supervision, during the week. The Anglican authorities soon grew apprehensive about the directions they perceived the Methodists to be taking, and they refused to designate more clergy for them. Thereupon, Wesley broke the movement away from the Anglican hierarchy, starting his own church under his own authority, although not renouncing his Anglican "priesthood." The number of apostate Catholics whose apostasy —formal or material —is due to the CCR is significant. The writer knows of one Protestant Charismatic church made up almost entirely of apostate Catholics.

Pentecostalism proper began in the 19th-century Revivalist movement, which spawned, among others, the sect of one Charles Parham in Topeka, Kansas, in the year 1900. Catholic Charismatics trace the beginning of the "outpouring of the Spirit" in modern times to this heretical sect. A brief synopsis of the history of this sect can be found in William Whalen’s book Minority Religions in America:

The reappearance of glossolaly (speaking in tongues) was reported in 1901. Charles F. Parham, a Holiness preacher, was dismayed by the aridity of his own spiritual life. He rented a white elephant mansion in Topeka, Kansas, and started a Bible school with about 40 students. Together they set out on an intensive study of scriptures and came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues was the one sign that a Christian had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. At 7 p.m., on New Year’s Eve in 1900, one of the students, Miss Agnes N. Ozmen, startled the assembled group when she began to pray in tongues. Within a few days, many more followed suit.

Parham spent the next five years as an itinerant preacher before opening another Bible school, this time in Houston. One of his students, a negro minister named W.J. Seymore, carried the "full-gospel" message to Los Angeles. A three-year-long revival in that California city attracted people from all over the country, and these people planted Pentecostalism in most of the major cities in the US, as well as in many European nations. The old Holiness churches refused to give emphasis to tongue-speaking, but dozens of independent Pentecostal Churches were soon organized.6

After its firm establishment in the soil of Protestantism, Pentecostalism began to grow quickly. It was always looked upon by Catholic writers as a new heretical sect, never as a "sister-church." The Revolution’s entry into the Church at Vatican II was to change this attitude, and "opening the windows to the world" was to mean also an opening to the religions of the world —and of its Prince, Satan.

Catholic "Transplant"

In 1967, during the early post-Vatican II turmoil of ecumenical frenzy and widespread apostasy, students at Pittsburgh’s Duquesne University began exposing themselves to Pentecostal influences because of spiritual aridity; they were envious of the "changed lives" among many Protestant friends and decided to pray for similar "graces." A weekend "retreat" —of sorts —proved to be the key to their answer. Various people approached various Protestant ministers, laity, and prayer groups; all received "Baptism in the Spirit" after having heretical hands laid on them in prayer.

The importance of this action cannot be overestimated. These Catholics submitted themselves to a non-Catholic quasi-sacramental rite —obviously a mockery of the sacrament of Confirmation —and the emotional thrill brought about by this sin (objectively speaking, of course) convinced them of the holiness of the entire experience. They came away as "Catholic" Charismatics, and their influence spread like wildfire all over the country —first on college campuses and then to the world at large.

If ever there were an argument for listening to the Church, this is it. The Church has warned her children to stay away from heretical "worship" for almost 2000 years because she knows what the consequences will be, both for the individuals involved and for the Mystical Body at large. Yet the CCR unabashedly admits —even praises —its ecumenical, PROTESTANT roots!

The tacit assumption is that the Church —the Body of Christ —had lost a major part (Charismatics would say the major part) of the Faith while the Holy Ghost maintained that aspect in Protestantism. Protestants, hence, were restoring to the Church her lost patrimony. This is an audacious and clearly false position which flatly contradicts two dogmas of the Faith: extra ecclesiam nulla salus —outside the Church, no salvation, and the indefectibility of the Church. Both will be addressed below.

Today, practically every diocese has an official Charismatic liaison office. There are Charismatic prayer groups, seminars, conventions, retreats, etc., all across the country and the world. No level of the hierarchy is without its contingent, and Charismatics are numerous among the clergy —especially the Regulars [i.e., the monastic clergy; webmaster’s note]. As will be shown, even Rome is not immune to their influence.

Last edited by jjkp777; Jul 6, '12 at 9:20 pm.
  #169  
Old Jul 6, '12, 11:26 pm
Jerry-Jet Jerry-Jet is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

jjkp777: Do you believe that any genuine charisms exist in the Catholic Church today?

What would be your all inclusive list of those that are acceptable when approved by the discernment of the magisterium of the Catholic church?
  #170  
Old Jul 7, '12, 4:23 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikaele View Post
How can glossolalia be a gift of the Holy Spirit if there seems to be no record of any modern Saints using it? the same thing with being 'slain in the Spirit,' I have yet to see a video of Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, Pius X or any other Saint slaying anyone in the Spirit or breaking out into 'tongues,' also, how can the Charismatic Renewal be a work of the Holy Spirit if it started in protestant churches?
Regarding the Holy Spirit and Protestants.

One should be very cautious about limiting the Holy Spirit to fit one's personal views.

What I am trying to say is that God calls all people to share in His eternal happiness. So why should anyone criticize the Holy Spirit for reaching out to Protestants in order to bring them into Christ's Catholic Church?

What is wrong with the Holy Spirit evangelizing?
  #171  
Old Jul 7, '12, 7:10 am
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/spira4.htm

The Charismatic Gifts

by Rev. William G. Most

The ordinary charismatic gifts, the invisible gifts that help us fulfill our state in life, are widely given. The extraordinary are given when and to whom the Spirit wills, as St. Paul tells us in 1 Cor 12.11. They are not routine today, though they were in the first generation Church, as we see from 1 Cor 12-14.

Some have claimed that these extraordinary graces are ordinary and were ordinary for the first centuries. But the Patristic texts cited for this view are few. Fairly clear are those of Tertullian (an early pentecostalist who eventually left the Church), St. Hilary, and St. Cyril of Jerusalem. Already by the fourth century, however, St. Augustine had to argue that the accounts of miracles in the early Church were not mere fables. In the East, St. John Chrysostom also noted that the age of the charismatic gifts as a regular occurence had long since ended. It is clear from the history of the early Church that as soon as Christians could point to the rapid spread of the Faith and the witness of martyrs in order to make converts, God began to give the charismatic gifts less frequently—they were always by their nature extraordinary, and long before the time of Augustine and Chrysostom, they were no longer necessary on a large scale.

Thus, it is not true that extraordinary charismatic gifts are simply actualizations--putting to work--of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that all Catholics have. Rember, the special charismatic things belong to one category, the seven Gifts to another . One cannot suppose graces from one side of this divide will actualize those from the other side.

Still further, the possession of extraordinary charismatic favors does not even prove those who have them are in the state of grace. We think of the frightening words of Our Lord Himself in Mt 7. 22-23: "Many will say to me on that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, and in your name cast out devils, and have done many marvels in your name? And then I will admit to them: I never knew you: depart from me you workers of iniquity."

Vatican II, Lumen gentium 12 said of the extraordinary gifts: ". . . they are not to be rashly sought, nor should one presumptuously expect of them the fruits of the apostolic works; but the judgment as to whether or not they are genuine, and as to their ordered use pertains to those who are in charge in the Church . . . ." When these gifts are used with careful discernment of spirits and obedience, they are "fitting and useful for the needs of the Church" (Ibid.)
  #172  
Old Jul 7, '12, 7:16 am
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

More information about the History of this "Renewal". Please click the link to read it in its' entirety. I posted below only a few paragraphs....

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Hist-of-Char.html

"HISTORY OF CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT

Brian Hughes

Historical Antecedents

The Catholic Church, the enduring light of all nations, has throughout her
history been no stranger to individuals and movements which make the
presumptuous claim to possess a unique and exclusive relationship with the
Holy Spirit.
As the late Monsignor Ronald Knox, in his masterful and authoritative work
entitled "Enthusiasm: A Chapter in the History of Religion" observed:

There is, I would say, a recurrent situation in Church History-using the word
'church' in the widest sense-where an excess of charity threatens unity. You
have a clique, an elite, of Christian men and (more importantly) women, who
are trying to live a less worldly life than their neighbors; to be more
attentive to the guidance (directly felt, they would tell you) of the Holy
Spirit. More and more, by a kind of fatality, you see them drawn apart from
their co-religionists, a hive ready to swarm…There is provocation on both
sides; on the one part, cheap jokes at the expense of over godliness…on the
other, contempt of the half-Christians, ominous references to old wine and
new bottles, to the kernel and the husk.

Then, while you hold your breath and turn your eyes away in fear, the break
comes, condemnation or secession, what difference does it make? A fresh name
has been added to the list of Christianities.

The pattern is always repeating itself, not in outline merely, but in detail.
(R.A. Knox, "Enthusiasm: A Chapter in the History of Religion" pge. 1
University of Notre Dame Press, Notre Dame, Indiana, 1994)

Were he alive today, I believe that Knox would clearly discern this same
"pattern always repeating itself" within the ranks of the Catholic
Charismatic Renewal movement; not necessarily among most of those faithful
Catholics who participate in some peripheral fashion within the general
context of the "official" Charismatic movement, which is under the watchful
eye and guiding hand of the Church's Magisterium, but rather of that hardened
nucleus of true believers who, at the fringes of this movement style
themselves messengers of a "New Pentecost" and of a so called "full gospel",
which under the aegis of a "latter rain of the Spirit's blessings"
encompasses, and is not contained within, the Holy Catholic Church founded by
Jesus Christ and which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly teaches,
subsists in its fullness within the Roman Catholic Church.

For these self styled "Catholic neo-pentecostals", who attempt mightily to
reconcile the essence of their Pentecostalism with the plenitude of truth as
possessed and proclaimed unceasingly and indefectibly by the Catholic Church,
must in the end come to terms with the history and origins of pentecostalism
and of the so called "ecumenical Charismatic movement" (which is, after all,
their indubitable point of origin), and its erroneous notions with regard to
the true nature of the "charismata" and their true place in the life of the
Church. They must also ultimately recognize the false irenicism practiced by
the movement's leaders, which is based upon a so called "unity in the Spirit"
which is in reality the subordination of the truths of revelation, of the
Divine Truths contained in Scripture and Tradition and taught authoritatively
by the Church throughout her history, to a shared, subjective and spiritually
dubious experience generally referred to as "Baptism in the Spirit," along
with all the concomitant phenomena which it implies. Lest these words sound
harsh, harsher still to Catholic truth is what is implied by many leaders in
the radical Charismatic movement- a claim that this generation possesses, by
virtue of the "outpouring" or "latter rain", a fullness of the Spirit's power
which was somehow mitigated or hidden (subsequent to the Apostolic Church) in
previous epochs of Church history- only to manifest itself anew as a "New
Pentecost" as articulated by the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements of the
twentieth century.

The Holy Spirit is eminently the Spirit of Truth, and it is His abiding
solicitude as Advocate and Guide which has been the hope and assurance of
Christians for these two thousand years. To affirm that His presence in the
Church was somehow insufficient or truncated throughout many centuries of her
life, and that it is in this century alone that believers can truly
experience the full fruit of His outpouring, is the grossest caricature of
the reality, the shallowest of insults to His perpetual and loving indwelling
of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Antecedents in Church History

As previously stated, the Church has witnessed the coming and going of many
movements, sects, and individuals who have claimed a unique and revelatory
relationship with the Holy Spirit, and what I wish to do within the rather
modest parameters of this work is list in a somewhat cursory fashion, certain
movements and sects within Church history which bear striking similarities to
the contemporary "Pentecostal/Charismatic movement", in its radical
expression. Such a list can hardly be comprehensive, and some such groups
will not be included-such as the Messalians, Quietists, and the Spanish
Illuminati or Alumbrados-not because they do not themselves possess many
elements in common with the "radical" Charismatics, but because to do so in
my mind would be excessively redundant.

For the same reason, I have chosen to include only the Camisards or "French
Prophets" among the groups which originated within the context of historical
Protestantism prior to the nineteenth century, and will not further elaborate
upon others such as the Brethren of the Free Spirit, Ranters, Quakers, nor
upon the Shakers and the Mormons. However, anybody taking the time to study
these groups in depth will undoubtedly be surprised at the many
characteristics they share in common with the modern day Pentecostals and
Charismatics.

Montanism

One of the first, and certainly the most notorious of the early "enthusiast"
challenges to Church authority, originated in Phrygia in the last years of
the second century, and centered around the self styled prophet Montanus, who
claimed to be the voice of the newly descended Paraclete, along with his two
"prophetesses" Prisca (or Priscilla) and Maxilla. Montanism's most famous
convert was the great (previously) Catholic apologist Tertullian, who was
apparently swept away by the great eloquence of the prophecies and the
putative holiness of the sect. Tertullian went so far as to write a defense
of the "prophet's" ecstasies, (which has since been lost) entitled "De
Ecstasi", and also described the manner in which the sect differentiated its
own adherents (the "Pneumatoi", "the spiritual" - spirit filled?) from the
Catholics, who were considered as mere "psychici", fleshly minded or
benighted. A rather illuminating thumbnail sketch of Montanus and the
"Cata-Phrygians" (out of Phrygia) as the sect was also known can be gleaned
from the following passage taken from the "Ecclesiastical History" of
Eusebius. (Bk. V, ch. 14. Eusebius is quoting an anonymous writer of the
second century.)

"Their opposition and their recent heresy which has separated them from the
Church arose on the following account…a recent convert, Montanus by name,
through his unquenchable desire for leadership, gave the adversary
opportunity against him. And he became beside himself…in a sort of frenzy
and ecstasy, he raved and began to babble and utter strange things,
prophesying in a manner contrary to the custom of the Church handed down by
tradition from the beginning. Some of those who heard his spurious utterances
at that time were indignant, and they rebuked him as one…that was under the
control of a demon…But others imagining themselves possessed of the Holy
Spirit and of prophetic gifts…Thus, by artifice…the devil, devising
destruction for the disobedient…secretly excited and inflamed their
understandings which had already become estranged from the true faith. And he
stirred up besides two women, and filled them with the false spirit, so that
they talked wildly and unreasonable and strangely, like the person already
mentioned. And the spirit pronounced them blessed as they rejoiced and
gloried in him, and puffed them up by the magnitude of his promises."

It is apparent, as our anonymous writer has stated, that there was a
traditional way of prophesying recognized by the traditions Church "from the
beginning", and that Montanism's ecstatic babbling, or "talking wildly and
unreasonably" (the reader is reffered to the published accounts of the
happenings at Azusa Street, below) paroxysms, or trance like utterances had
nothing to do with the manner of prophesying approved by the Church.
Although the Montanists were condemned by the Bishops of Phrygia, they
actually gained a foothold at Rome and were apparently at the point of being
recognized by Pope Eleutherius, when, according to Tertullian, a certain
Praxeas, "uttering lies" convinced the Pope to withhold such approval.
The last remaining adherents of the sect were reconciled to the Catholic
Church by St. Augustine in the fourth century."
  #173  
Old Jul 7, '12, 7:25 am
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

And for those thinking about joining a Christian Life Seminar...the people who give this are usually from a Charismatic Covenant Community... What you should consider before you attend this seminar and before you join a Charismatic covenant community:

http://www.nd.edu/~areimers/Reliable.pdf

http://covenantcommunities.blogspot.com/

Very long but well worth the read.

Peace
  #174  
Old Jul 7, '12, 8:50 am
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aragonjohn1 aragonjohn1 is offline
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Cool Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
The above quotations, comments/suggestions about St. Paul's instructions, and the report about the miracle(s) of hearing are interesting.

However, in my very humble opinion, the above stops before reaching the heart and depth of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. For example, Acts 10:47-48 (not posted) is key to the difference between the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and the various forms of Pentecostalism.

In addition, I get the impression that the above is avoiding St. Paul's clear distinction between the gift of tongues which anybody can use and the gift of tongues mentioned in the classical list of St. Paul. Personally, I think this problem is due to the fact that the English words speak, speaking are used to describe the two, very different Holy Spirit gifts which involve the use of tongues as opposed to using an actual foreign language.

Pardon me, but the above seems hung up on the concepts of foreign language and unintelligible ecstatic utterances. As long as this hang-up is the prevalant way of looking at St. Paul, it is nearly impossible for anyone to understand the two different Holy Spirit gifts which involve the use of tongues and which are practiced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Clarification:
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal as it exists today is the outgrowth from a retreat held in February 1967 of several faculty members and students from Duquesne University.
http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/AboutCCR/

Thanks : )

Shalom


I got my historical facts from a protested rant book that was published in 1977 so I could be wrong thanks for the clarification and the link!!!

God bless you!!!!
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  #175  
Old Jul 7, '12, 8:55 am
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aragonjohn1 aragonjohn1 is offline
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Cool Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjkp777 View Post
Here is some information about John Salza:

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/john_salza.html

"John Salza is an attorney and renowned Catholic apologist, author and speaker. Mr. Salza is the creator of ScriptureCatholic.com, one of the most popular apologetics sites on the Internet. ScriptureCatholic.com is a veritable library of over 2,000 Scripture citations and over 800 quotes from the early Church Fathers that explain and defend the Catholic Faith. The site also includes a popular Q&A section and features on apologetics and current events and controversies (Fatima, Novus Ordo, Vatican II, Sedevacantism, SSPX, Religious Liberty, etc.).

Mr. Salza is the author of the following best-selling books by Our Sunday Visitor: The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith; The Biblical Basis for the Papacy; The Biblical Basis for the Eucharist; and, Masonry Unmasked: An Insider Reveals the Secrets of the Lodge. He is also the author of Why Catholics Cannot Be Masons and The Mystery of Predestination – According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (TAN Books) and The Biblical Basis for Purgatory (St. Benedict Press), and The Biblical Basis for Tradition – Why Catholics Don’t Rely on Scripture Alone (ACLA Press), as well as the booklet Honor Your Mother, Defend Your Queen: A Marian Treasury (Relevant Radio). Mr. Salza is also a columnist for The Remnant Newspaper, Catholic Family News, The Fatima Crusader, and also serves as President of Apologetics for the American Catholic Lawyers Association.

John Salza is a frequent guest and host on Catholic radio including Searching the Word, The Drew Mariani Show, Kresta in the Afternoon and The Voice of Catholic Radio. Mr. Salza has an apologetics feature on Relevant Radio called “Relevant Answers” which runs six times a day, seven days a week. He also has a daily apologetics spot on the Eternal Word Television Network’s (EWTN) Global Catholic radio program called “Catholic Q&A.” Mr. Salza has appeared numerous times on EWTN to discuss a variety of apologetics topics. Mr. Salza is also a regular contributor to FatimaTV, a 24-hour Catholic television station located in Rome and broadcast throughout Italy, where he hosts in the Italian language apologetics programming and interviews on Fatima, Freemasonry and other Catholic topics."
Wow I did not know that I found his blog two days ago and my scripture quotes were from that

Thanks : )

Shalom
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If you want to know who I am,” he said, “Christian is my name,
Catholic is my surname.
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  #176  
Old Jul 7, '12, 9:12 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

General Information

A basic book about the Charismatic gifts is

A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church
ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh
Key of David Publications

It is on line here.
http://brendancase.com/uploads/Key_t...ic_Renewal.pdf

The following book is about the first eight centuries of Catholicism.
It is a thorough study of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" and the charisms in the early Church. It includes; Tertullian in his Catholic years, Hilary of Poitiers, Basil, Gregory Nazianzus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Philoxenus, John of Apamea, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Severus of Antioch, and Joseph Hzaazya. They represent Latin, Greek, and Syrian cultures, almost the whole of the Mediterranean seaboard.

Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
ISBN 0-8146-5009-0
by Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M.

Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M. are also editors of a document based on "The Heart of the Church Consultation" held May 6 -11, 1990 in Techny, Illinois.

This document is
Fanning the Flame, What Does Baptism in the Holy Spirit Have to Do with Christian Initiation?
ISBN 0-8146-5013-9
  #177  
Old Jul 7, '12, 9:32 am
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

Here are more "fruits" of this movement.... Mary Mother of God is another covenant community. Again, the point being that this Renewal has a proclivity to mislead the faithful.

http://covenantcommunities.blogspot....mother-of.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...og/mogmain.htm

Pray for the Truth!

Peace and God bless you!
  #178  
Old Jul 7, '12, 10:54 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjkp777 View Post
Here are more "fruits" of this movement.... Mary Mother of God is another covenant community. Again, the point being that this Renewal has a proclivity to mislead the faithful.

http://covenantcommunities.blogspot....mother-of.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...og/mogmain.htm

Pray for the Truth!

Peace and God bless you!
Regarding the following link from post 177. Do you have an update on what happened after this issue.Confidential Document Reserved to the Members of the Mother of God Community
Oct 24, 2004
James Cardinal Hickey Address to Mother of God Community September 23, 1995.
http://covenantcommunities.blogspot....mother-of.html

Regardless of timing, this link itself is important to illustrate the differences between covenant communities and Catholic Charismatic Prayer groups which normally are based within the Catholic Parish. Thus, there is no need for an individual prayer group to reinvent the wheel.

This comment follows Cardinal Hickey's letter. "Although Cardinal Hickey did not disband the community, his concerns of the community were serious concerns and the reforms he requested (and hopefully have been implemented) essentially gutted the pastoral and teaching structure of the Mother of God community."

Notice that what was gutted was the pastoral and teaching structure of the community. Notice that the normal Charismatic Prayer Group located within a Catholic Parish is not considered as a separate community with its own pastoral and teaching structure. On the contrary, in some areas, group members study Catholic teachings in depth and then present them to the group as an affirmation of their Faith. In fact, when the Catholic Life in the Spirit (or similar) is presented over a number of weeks, Catholic teachings are priority. As for pastoral care, that is taken care of by the Pastor of the Catholic Parish.

An additional note. Often members of a Charismatic Prayer group serve as lectors and R.C.I.A. teachers. Others will have a ministry to the sick by volunteering in Hospice work. The pastoral care and teaching here is part of the Catholic structure in place within the Catholic parish, the diocese, and the geographic area.

Personally, I think that the underlying issues involve the use of the two Holy Spirit gifts which use tongues. Instead of getting in the middle of a Scripture interpretation duel, I would rather deal with real questions about these two gifts. This may help clear up some of the misunderstandings and misinterpretations which appear on CAF threads.

Last edited by grannymh; Jul 7, '12 at 11:10 am.
  #179  
Old Jul 7, '12, 6:12 pm
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Salvatore123 Salvatore123 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

I had previously said (not that it matters to anyone reading) I was finished commenting as I did not think I had any more to contribute, but after reading the various posts by people since my last post, I found three distinct "points" about "charismatic gifts":

1. Except for when they were specifically mentioned in the Bible as having affected several people who were "important" within the Church at that time (St. Paul details the where/when/who), we see - based on Church writings and history - a literal absence of the continuation of these "gifts". I respectfully submit that as Father Most (RIP - I corresponded with him several times before he died - he was a very good historical theologian who wrote some very important books and articles that are still relevant and cited today) suggested, the "charismatic gifts" mentioned in the Bible occurred at a special time and in a specific community because of the need to help spread the New Word preached by Christ. In other words, THE CHURCH needed it to help the THE CHURCH continue to spread.

2. The Church goes through a period of more than a thousand years before we see this "revival" of "speaking in tongues", and it is documented that it arose first in Protestant circles, and was later adapted by Catholic groups who were clearly not "satisfied" with the present state of the Church at that time. For some reason, people thought the "Church" needed some "updating" in the 1950's and 1960's. I submit that the Church was fine - the people were the ones who had the problems. The Church did not cause the rise of Communism, Liberalism, "tune in, turn on, drop out" culture, "free love", racism and the associated riots, the Vietnam War, etc. I don't think that anyone can say with a straight face that the Catholic Church in America, and especially in Europe, is better off today than it was in the early 20th century. Orthodox Catholicism has been decimated, and we find people popping up with all sorts of "cures". I am firmly in the camp that does not believe people who engage in "hysterical emotional outbursts" as evidence of "possession of the Holy Spirit". I HAVE SEEN the denigration of the Holy Mass by the presence of hand-holding, raised hands, deviating from the GIRM, full bands accompanied by clapping as though at a concert - this is all Protestant-rooted. The presence of "speaking in tongues" in the Bible IS proof - yes, proof - that this charism existed and may still exist. But the presence of it in the Bible is NOT proof that everyone who acts "charismatic" is indeed under the influence of the Holy Spirit . . . and THAT is the problem. Who decides, from a Church view, whether a person exercising an alleged "charism" is to be believed? Good Lord - look at what it takes for the Church to recognize a person as a saint or an apparition as truthful (Fatima, Lourdes, vs. Medjugore)!!!

3. Finally, I have said it before, and I will say it for the final time: I have NEVER said that the Holy Spirit is limited by ANYTHING - whether time, people, emotion, "tactics", whatever - the Holy Spirit will do whatever It wants to do when It wants to do it.

But I respectfully submit that EVERY "charismatic Catholic" who claims to have "discovered" this new charism that I have experienced, has always sought out the Holy Spirit, become "emotional" (to be charitable), and then sought affirmation that what he or she experienced was a charism from the Holy Spirit. From my reading of the Bible, the Holy Spirit chooses IT'S own time and place to deliver It's gifts - not man. It is as though they are DESERATELY seeking "the Holy Spirit" to such a degree that it is a foregone conclusion that they ARE going to find the Holy Spirit - it is only a matter of time. That is simply too presumptuous for me.

And am I mistaken that St. Paul as well as Vatican II (in a surprisingly frank, smart statement) stated that one should NOT seek out such "gifts"?????

In closing, I simply have never found it necessary for God to need OUR help in doing anything. I find it "hubris gone wild" when I see people claiming that the Holy Spirit has bestowed some sort of charism on only them, and that they believe it is necessary to continue God's Church, that this alleged charism be spread to others.

Some sincere defenders of "charismatic catholics" on this thread have said that it is NOT necessary that anyone partake or engage in the charism of "speaking in tongues" and other "charismatic gifts". Yet, why are these charismatic groups so intent on getting people to join them? Contrary to what some have said, these groups - and I have HEARD their pitch first hand - essentially say that to truly "reach" God, one needs to become charismatic.

Sorry . . . I just don't believe that, and I don't believe that the Catholic Church as ever taught that . . .
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Sam
- a man who knows his limitations and who always welcomes prayers for his soul.

Last edited by Salvatore123; Jul 7, '12 at 6:20 pm. Reason: spelling
  #180  
Old Jul 7, '12, 7:05 pm
jjkp777 jjkp777 is offline
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Default Re: Questions about the charismatic renewal...

I could not have said it better myself.... Thank you for your post!
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