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  #1  
Old Apr 8, '11, 2:51 pm
wntog wntog is offline
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Default EDITED: How much water should be added to the wine?

Should it disturb me that when the priest pours water into the chalice after the wine, he pours a drop or two, no more! Doesn't this imply that water is less important to us when in fact, it is truly MORE important. Or, does it have something to do with the intake of the wine which is truly Christ's blood?

I would appreciate an answer.

Wilmar N. Tognazzini
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  #2  
Old Apr 8, '11, 2:54 pm
Erich Erich is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

This link should answer your question.
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  #3  
Old Apr 8, '11, 3:40 pm
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curlycool89 curlycool89 is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by wntog View Post
Should it disturb me that when the priest pours water into the chalice after the wine, he pours a drop or two, no more! Doesn't this imply that water is less important to us when in fact, it is truly MORE important. Or, does it have something to do with the intake of the wine which is truly Christ's blood?

I would appreciate an answer.

Wilmar N. Tognazzini
As it says in the link given above:
Quote:
Indeed, it is believed that Our Lord himself used wine tempered with water at the Last Supper as this was the common practice among the Jews and in Mediterranean culture in general.
The common practice in Jesus' day was to dilute the wine with water, because the only people who drank wine straight up were those looking for a quick drunk. Essentially, as I once heard a priest put it, "Jesus was not a hic, and neither are we". Eventually it came to symbolize the mingling of the water and blood that came out the side of Christ when He was pierced with a lance.

I would argue that the wine is much more important also. The water is not even necessary for a valid consecration.
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  #4  
Old Apr 8, '11, 4:16 pm
seagal seagal is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
As it says in the link given above:

The common practice in Jesus' day was to dilute the wine with water, because the only people who drank wine straight up were those looking for a quick drunk. Essentially, as I once heard a priest put it, "Jesus was not a hic, and neither are we". Eventually it came to symbolize the mingling of the water and blood that came out the side of Christ when He was pierced with a lance.

I would argue that the wine is much more important also. The water is not even necessary for a valid consecration.
Not according to the link given above.
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  #5  
Old Apr 8, '11, 4:55 pm
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curlycool89 curlycool89 is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by seagal View Post
Not according to the link given above.
Umm, did you read to the third paragraph?

Quote:
Although the water is not essential for the validity of the sacrament, the Church holds it in great importance and it must never be omitted. The Council of Trent even went so far as to excommunicate whoever denied the need for this mixture (see Canon 9, Session XXII).
Not that I'm saying that we should omit it, but I don't think the water is more important than the wine.
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  #6  
Old Apr 8, '11, 9:14 pm
PacoG PacoG is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

I think the Missal says it all.....
The deacon (or the priest) pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly:

By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share our humanity.
Or another way to put it...as St. John the Baptist said: "For Him to increase, I must decrease."

Or as another prayer says: "Let my nothingness be lost in Your Omnipotence.."
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  #7  
Old Apr 9, '11, 4:43 am
seagal seagal is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by curlycool89 View Post
Umm, did you read to the third paragraph?
I did but I focussed on the 2nd part of the 1st sentence. I stand corrected.
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  #8  
Old Apr 9, '11, 6:52 am
laszlo laszlo is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
This link should answer your question.
Wonderful explanation

Quote:
For because Christ bore us all, in that He also bore our sins, we see that in the water is understood the people, but in the wine is showed the blood of Christ. But when the water is mingled in the cup with wine, the people [are] made one with Christ, and the assembly of believers is associated and conjoined with Him on whom it believes; which association and conjunction of water and wine is so mingled in the Lord's cup, that that mixture cannot any more be separated.

The only few drop of water means the level of importance between us and God.
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  #9  
Old Apr 9, '11, 4:57 pm
Shin Shin is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by wntog View Post
Should it disturb me that when the priest pours water into the chalice after the wine, he pours a drop or two, no more! Doesn't this imply that water is less important to us when in fact, it is truly MORE important. Or, does it have something to do with the intake of the wine which is truly Christ's blood?

I would appreciate an answer.

Wilmar N. Tognazzini
The priest is not supposed to put more than a little water in the chalice.

"A little water is mixed with the wine to represent the mixture or the union that takes place in the Incarnation of the Word between the divinity and the humanity, and also to represent the intimate union that is effected in the sacramental Communion between Jesus Christ and the person who communicates a union which St. Augustine calls Mixtura Dei et hominis ("A mixture of God and of man"), Hence the priest, in the prayer which he recites while mixing the water with the wine, beseeches God to grant that, as his divine Son became partaker of our humanity, we may be made partakers of his divinity. The Council of Trent declares that this mingling of water and of wine in the chalice is prescribed: "The holy Synod admonishes that it is enjoined on the priests by the Church that they should mix water with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, as it is believed that the Lord has done the same thing." However, this is only an ecclesiastical, not a divine precept. "

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church, 'The Holy Mass'
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  #10  
Old Apr 9, '11, 5:26 pm
puzzleannie puzzleannie is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by wntog View Post
Should it disturb me that when the priest . . . . . . .
unless you have proof positive the priest is not observing the rites properly you should not let it bother you a whit what he does or does not do. Unless the bishop has asked you to observe and report, you should approach every Mass intent on your own participation to the fullest, and for your spiritual help, give up the temptation to look for any fault on the part of the celebrant or any one else assisting. This does very little good, and much damage to your peace of mind.
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  #11  
Old Apr 9, '11, 5:36 pm
Joe Kelley Joe Kelley is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

See Father Z. [Scroll down to fourth paragraph]
Quote:
At the offertory the priest is to add a small quantity of water to the wine in the chalice. That is to be a small quantity so that there is not the least doubt that the quantity of water added was great enough so that what was in the chalice canít any longer be called wine. In other words, it cannot be so much water that it breaks the substance of the wine by dilution...
The caution is against adding too much water; there is no minimum.
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  #12  
Old Apr 10, '11, 5:49 am
seagal seagal is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzleannie View Post
unless you have proof positive the priest is not observing the rites properly you should not let it bother you a whit what he does or does not do. Unless the bishop has asked you to observe and report, you should approach every Mass intent on your own participation to the fullest, and for your spiritual help, give up the temptation to look for any fault on the part of the celebrant or any one else assisting. This does very little good, and much damage to your peace of mind.
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  #13  
Old Apr 10, '11, 4:57 pm
TheMc TheMc is offline
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Default Re: Liturgy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Kelley View Post
The caution is against adding too much water; there is no minimum.
Sometimes priests use one of these:



A scruple spoon. You dip it into the water cruet and dump it into the chalice. That way, you never add to much.

My bishop occasionally uses one of these.
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