Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

Ohhh, and also Idols. Exodus 20:4

Does God, or scriptures, contradict themselves in your opinion?

Exo 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle.
Exo 25:19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other.

Num 21:8 And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.
Num 21:9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

1Ki 6:23 And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height.
1Ki 6:24 One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing.
1Ki 6:25 The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims:
1Ki 6:26 That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub.
1Ki 6:27 And he set the cherubims in the midst of the inner temple: and the cherubims stretched forth their wings, and the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall: and the other wings in the midst of the temple touched one another.
1Ki 6:28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.
1Ki 6:29 And all the walls of the temple round about he carved with divers figures and carvings: and he made in them cherubims and palm trees, and divers representations, as it were standing out, and coming forth from the wall.

1Ki 7:25 And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east: and the sea was above upon them, and their hinder parts were all hid within.
1Ki 7:26 And the laver was a hand breadth thick: and the brim thereof was like the brim of a cup, or the leaf of a crisped lily: it contained two thousand bates.
1Ki 7:27 And he made ten bases of brass, every base was four cubits in length, and four cubits in breadth, and three cubits high.
1Ki 7:28 And the work itself of the bases, was intergraven: and there were gravings between the joinings.
1Ki 7:29 And between the little crowns and the ledges, were lions, and oxen, and cherubims; and in the joinings likewise above: and under the lions and oxen, as it were bands of brass hanging down.
1Ki 7:30 And every base had four wheels, and axletrees of brass: and at the four sides were undersetters, under the laver molten, looking one against another.
1Ki 7:31 The mouth also of the laver within, was in the top of the chapiter: and that which appeared without, was of one cubit all round, and together it was one cubit and a half: and in the corners of the pillars were divers engravings: and the spaces between the pillars were square, not round.
1Ki 7:32 And the four whee]s, which were at the four corners of the base, were joined one to another under the base: the height of a wheel was a cubit and a half.
1Ki 7:33 And they were such wheels as are used to be made in a chariot: and their axletrees, and spokes, and strakes, and naves, were all cast.
1Ki 7:34 And the four undersetters, that were at every corner of each base, were of the base itself, cast and joined together.
1Ki 7:35 And on the top of the base, there was a round compass of half a cubit, so wrought that the laver might be set thereon, having its gravings, and divers sculptures of itself.
1Ki 7:36 He engraved also in those plates, which were of brass, and in the corners, cherubims, and lions, and palm trees, in likeness of a man standing, so that they seemed not to be engraven, but added round about.
1Ki 7:37 After this manner, he made ten bases, of one casting and measure, and the like graving.
1Ki 7:38 He made also ten lavers of brass: one laver contained four bates, and was of four cubits: and upon every base, in all ten, he put as many lavers.
1Ki 7:39 And he set the ten bases, five on the right side of the temple, and five on the left: and the sea he put on the right side of the temple, over against the east southward.
1Ki 7:40 And Hiram made cauldrons, and shovels, and basins, and finished all the work of king Solomon in the temple of the Lord.
1Ki 7:41 The two pillars and the two cords of the chapiters, upon the chapiters of the pillars: and the two networks, to cover the two cords, that were upon the top of the pillars.
1Ki 7:42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks: two rows of pomegranates for each network, to cover the cords of the chapiters, which were upon the tops of the pillars.
1Ki 7:43 And the ten bases, and the ten lavers on the bases.
1Ki 7:44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea.
1Ki 7:45 And the cauldrons, and the shovels, and the basins. All the vessels that Hiram made for king Solomon, for the house of the Lord, were of fine brass.

No matter what propaganda you've heard, read or seen, Catholics do not have idols, nor do they worship idols.

May I suggest you ask what we believe, instead of telling us what we believe according to Jehovah Witnesses?

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

And these people Like Jesus Mary and others are not up there in Body and flesh as the catholic Church teaches.

1 Cor 15: 42-50

You, or whoever is giving you this stuff, has severely misinterpreted the passage, in my honest opinion, unless you're agreeing with Catholics that the resurrected body is incorruptible.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption: it shall rise in incorruption.

They are ALIVE in heaven. That's what eternally alive is.

Mar 12:26 And as concerning the dead that they rise again have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spoke to him, saying: I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (Holy and True), dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given to every one of them one; And it was said to them that they should rest for a little time till their fellow servants and their brethren, who are to be slain even as they, should be filled up.

Rev 20:4 And I saw seats. And they sat upon them: and judgment was given unto them. And the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and who had not adored the beast nor his image nor received his character on their foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[Prodigal Son1]

Lenny,

Is this discussion for you to throw out multiple objections in 'batches'? If you have questions, please put it in the form of a question and then only one question at a time so that we may answer it properly. We're not going anywhere and can answer all your questions. Throw out 'batches' of objections seems to have an agenda other than looking for answers.

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

I still don't understand. I think I heard of that in some Kemetic (Egyptian) group i use to be in. But i think she borrowed it from the Catholic religion lol i see many things in the chants and stuff she did that i later found in the catholic. She would always use catholic explanations to explain the gods. Lol i find it funny now.

So where did this start. Can come one show me a quote from an early christian that says something similar to that please. I thank you all for showing me these things.

I think the reason why i can be so open minded about the Church is because i always felt drawn there. When i was young i remember for no reason in particular i said i want to be Catholic.

Early Church Fathers

[icamay]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

Lenny,

Is this discussion for you to throw out multiple objections in 'batches'? If you have questions, please put it in the form of a question and then only one question at a time so that we may answer it properly. We're not going anywhere and can answer all your questions. Throw out 'batches' of objections seems to have an agenda other than looking for answers.

I would also like for you to see a priest. Priests are required to have college educations and years of theological study before they may be ordained. They can answer these questions thoroughly. What is there to lose? If you don't like the answers, so be it. I find it only fair on the side of Catholicism, since you've clearly studied with the JW leaders in-depth. God's road map is only good so long as you read it before you set out on your journey - otherwise, you are lost before you begin.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

Lenny,

Is this discussion for you to throw out multiple objections in 'batches'? If you have questions, please put it in the form of a question and then only one question at a time so that we may answer it properly. We're not going anywhere and can answer all your questions. Throw out 'batches' of objections seems to have an agenda other than looking for answers.

I am sorry that you misinterpreted my reasoning. My only reasoning for doing this is to find answers. Out of all the things i have learned from you about Jehovah's Witnesses i know that they are corrupt. They way that they were started are so similar to many protestant churches. But the things they say i don't have answers for. The only Church in my eyes now that can have the Truth is the Catholic Church because no other Church has what Catholics have. No one knows the scriptures better. I ask all theses because i want to know the truth. I want to here from people who know the truth. I want and need the truth i think I am going to find it here. Trust me i would go to a priest if I could but i don't think my mom would take me. So i am doing this out of wanting to know. So please tell me what you believe and why you do and please show me with scripture and quotes from early Christians. I am just trying to make sense of everything. And pray that i can make it to a Church. Thank you

[icamay]

Lenny, if you do decide to become Catholic, will you have to wait until you are older? You said your mother won't take you to a priest, so I am wondering if she will support you should you decide to become Catholic?

No real reason, just curiousity. I was in the same place at 13, and my mother would not let me study with any Catholics. I had no reason to become Catholic except that something kept telling me that it was where God wanted me. It's 20 years later, and I've been filled in that time with anti-Catholic rhetoric because my family learned about my interest. God called me home again, and this time, I'm happy to oblige. I am seeing a lot in common with you!

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

I am sorry that you misinterpreted my reasoning. My only reasoning for doing this is to find answers. Out of all the things i have learned from you about Jehovah's Witnesses i know that they are corrupt. They way that they were started are so similar to many protestant churches. But the things they say i don't have answers for. The only Church in my eyes now that can have the Truth is the Catholic Church because no other Church has what Catholics have. No one knows the scriptures better. I ask all theses because i want to know the truth. I want to here from people who know the truth. I want and need the truth i think I am going to find it here. Trust me i would go to a priest if I could but i don't think my mom would take me. So i am doing this out of wanting to know. So please tell me what you believe and why you do and please show me with scripture and quotes from early Christians. I am just trying to make sense of everything. And pray that i can make it to a Church. Thank you

Then let's take it one subject at a time please, It's hard to address several questions at once. You should be looking for the best answer possible and sometimes that requires more than one or two posts.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

Then let's take it one subject at a time please, It's hard to address several questions at once. You should be looking for the best answer possible and sometimes that requires more than one or two posts.

Can you explain about why the paradise wont happen on earth but in heven? Because in the bible it says grain would fill the earth. Correct? I guess it was called New Jerusalem the one in Heven.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by icamay

Lenny, if you do decide to become Catholic, will you have to wait until you are older? You said your mother won't take you to a priest, so I am wondering if she will support you should you decide to become Catholic?

No real reason, just curiousity. I was in the same place at 13, and my mother would not let me study with any Catholics. I had no reason to become Catholic except that something kept telling me that it was where God wanted me. It's 20 years later, and I've been filled in that time with anti-Catholic rhetoric because my family learned about my interest. God called me home again, and this time, I'm happy to oblige. I am seeing a lot in common with you!

I am sure i could get there through friends. Acouple i have asked but I have not got there yet.

[T More]

Lenny, I was a JW for 25 years and am very familiar with their teachings and practices. Feel free to PM me anytime.

[mackbrislawn]

In regards to birthdays, the Watchtower says the bible only references birthdays celebrations twice, Pharoah's and Herod's. Well, that is not quite true. There is an implicit reference to birthday celebrations by Job's sons, Job 1:4--"His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each on his day; and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them."

"His" day would mean his birthday, so it is misleading to say their is no favorable reference to birthdays in the bible. Again, the Watchtower is trying to take advantage of a person's incomplete knowledge to fool them.

Actually, the Watchtower's reasoning is very weak to begin with. And, who are they anyway to tell you how to interpret and celebrate days? For scripture itself says. at Romans 14:5--"One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let everyone be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God..."

So, you can decide for yourself to celebrate a birthday. They do not have the right to tell you otherwise, because it is up to you to be fully convinced in your own mind, not the mind of the Witnesses. After all, according to scripture, when you observe a birthday, you observe it in honor of the Lord! You are giving thanks to God for His gift of life to you!

Scripture is very diligent in keeping track of ages and generations. To do this means observing birthdays. If not, how would we know how old Methusalah was unless he observed his birthdays?

The freedom scripture gives us in observing days, also applies to our celebration of Christmas and Easter. The exact days do not matter, but our giving thanks to God for his gifts to us, for His Son, and for the Resurrection.

[mackbrislawn]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

Can you explain about why the paradise wont happen on earth but in heven? Because in the bible it says grain would fill the earth. Correct? I guess it was called New Jerusalem the one in Heven.

Yes, the paradise will happen on earth. Revelation 21:1-3 says: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He shall dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them".

In other words, heaven comes down to earth. God will dwell with men, make Himself known to them on earth.

The Witnesses take advantage of many Christians' incomplete knowledge of what the church has always taught about the end times. Many Christians think we "go to heaven" when we die. Well, we do. But that is only until the resurrection, when all bodies will be raised and reunited with their souls, and the saved will live on earth forever with God dwelling with them.

The Witness use this strategy in order to fool us: they will ask the Christian, "Do you believe you will go to heaven when you die?" The answer will be yes. The Witness will then show passages such as "the meek will inherit the earth," and others that show the earth will be eternal and we will dwell on it. This befuddles the Christian, because they often will not recall the complete Christian teaching, that yes, even though the saved do "go to heaven," after the resurrection we will dwell forever on the new glorified earth, in our new glorified, spritual but physical bodies. Christians will inherit the earth!

[YADA]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

How. I am looking for explanations.

Another poster stated that Jesus and the Father are different "persons" ...

Trinity - no person has nor can completely understand it .. and anyone who tells you they can is fooling you ....... the reality is that this is a Divine Mystery ..... We can explore what it means and come to deeper understandings .. and many means have been explored through the years ...for example the Three Leaf Clover and H2O [Ice, Water, Steam - all fundamentally the same - just H20 in various states] ....

The "persons' refered to in the greek context are not individual persons ie LennyUSA and YADA ... but more correctly understood as something we would refer to as a "persona" .... and in reality its relational ...So I will share with you how I experienced it in theology study - as simply and beifly as possible:

The perfection of unity is One God - Three Persons ... Father, Son and Holy Spirit ... this in essence is the perfection of relationship - the Perfection of Family ...

We use terms that we relate to - to describe mysteries we attempt to more fully understand ... thus words that describe our human relationships - family ... we learned this from God .... becuase God does this in His inspired Words to us - in Scripture ... we are the Bride - God the Groom [Hosea especially but so too the Psalms, other Prophets, and many places in the New Testament Writings]. So you can see that the perfection of "FAMILY": is found in the HOLY TRINITY ... it is not God who is like us .. as in the Trinity is like a family ... but our human families are like the Trinity - the perfect family ....we are made in the image and likeness of God [Genesis].

So - take you .. you are someone's child, someone's friend, another's student, a cousin, a sibling, a citizen - to encompass all that you are - though one - takes many faucets ...

With God the absolute perfection is Three .. no more .... Three - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - absolute perfection ...

Pax Christe

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by mackbrislawn

Yes, the paradise will happen on earth. Revelation 21:1-3 says: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He shall dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them".

In other words, heaven comes down to earth. God will dwell with men, make Himself known to them on earth.

The Witnesses take advantage of many Christians' incomplete knowledge of what the church has always taught about the end times. Many Christians think we "go to heaven" when we die. Well, we do. But that is only until the resurrection, when all bodies will be raised and reunited with their souls, and the saved will live on earth forever with God dwelling with them.

The Witness use this strategy in order to fool us: they will ask the Christian, "Do you believe you will go to heaven when you die?" The answer will be yes. The Witness will then show passages such as "the meek will inherit the earth," and others that show the earth will be eternal and we will dwell on it. This befuddles the Christian, because they often will not recall the complete Christian teaching, that yes, even though the saved do "go to heaven," after the resurrection we will dwell forever on the new glorified earth, in our new glorified, spritual but physical bodies. Christians will inherit the earth!

In the bible I can't find it right now but it said that lazrus is sleeping in death. When Jesus brought him back to life he did not talk about heven or hell. And somewhere it says the deciesed are concise of nothing. WHat do they mean? Maby you can find it for me? thanx