Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

[Prodigal Son1]

Is this the passage you're referring too?

Joh 11:11 These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead.

Joh 11:14 Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead.

There was another Lazarus that Christ spoke about. It was clear that there were two different places in that story.

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Luk 16:23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither.
Luk 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren,
Luk 16:28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
Luk 16:29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
Luk 16:31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

[beegirl]

I’ll be praying for you…I think you’re going about this decision for the right reason and doing it the right way. My grandpa is a Jehovah’s Witness. Do you come from a family that follows either of the two religions you’re caught between? (Sorry this offers no help to you…just wondering :P)

[mackbrislawn]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

In the bible I can't find it right now but it said that lazrus is sleeping in death. When Jesus brought him back to life he did not talk about heven or hell. And somewhere it says the deciesed are concise of nothing. WHat do they mean? Maby you can find it for me? thanx

Yes, it is in Ecclesiastes 9:5:
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they have any more wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten," as found in the Watchtower New World Translation bible.

Other bibles translate it this way:
"For the living know they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost." .New American Bible

Or, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, but the memory of them is lost." Revised Standard Version.

The Watchtower uses this verse as a proof-text for their doctrine that the dead simply go out of existence, and cannot be conscious at all. Note that they deliberately use the word "conscious" instead of "know", and add the words "at all" to strengthen their point. They have actually added words to scripture! That is why the Witnesses have their own bible, because they have translated it to fit their doctrine better.

The Witnesses teach that we go out of existence at death, but in that case, how can the dead be resurrected? Well, the Watchtower says that God keeps a memory of them in His mind. What? How can that be when scripture says the remembrance of them is forgotten? You can see the contradiction they have to deal with, and they hope that you will not see it. Once more, they are trying to fool you.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by mackbrislawn

Yes, it is in Ecclesiastes 9:5:
"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they have any more wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten," as found in the Watchtower New World Translation bible.

Other bibles translate it this way:
"For the living know they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost." .New American Bible

Or, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, but the memory of them is lost." Revised Standard Version.

The Watchtower uses this verse as a proof-text for their doctrine that the dead simply go out of existence, and cannot be conscious at all. Note that they deliberately use the word "conscious" instead of "know", and add the words "at all" to strengthen their point. They have actually added words to scripture! That is why the Witnesses have their own bible, because they have translated it to fit their doctrine better.

The Witnesses teach that we go out of existence at death, but in that case, how can the dead be resurrected? Well, the Watchtower says that God keeps a memory of them in His mind. What? How can that be when scripture says the remembrance of them is forgotten? You can see the contradiction they have to deal with, and they hope that you will not see it. Once more, they are trying to fool you.

So the dead no longer know nothing? What does that mean? If they are still in heaven would they not know something?

[josephback]

What about the Eucharist? Is there a legitimate non-Catholic understanding to this sacrament as taught in the Gospels? Jesus seemed pretty clear about it.

Peace,
Joe


P.S. Good for you to look into these things. But beware of false teachers, as there are many. God be with you on your journey

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by beegirl

I’ll be praying for you…I think you’re going about this decision for the right reason and doing it the right way. My grandpa is a Jehovah’s Witness. Do you come from a family that follows either of the two religions you’re caught between? (Sorry this offers no help to you…just wondering :P)

Haha no. Actually my grandparents are Catholic but not religious at all. They never go to church and don't know much about the religion. They don't glorify the Catholic Church ether so they don't rely count. No one in my family is Jehovah's Witnesses that i know of. A friend on the bus was a Jehovah's Witnesses and I started a study. I am just seeking Truth and the Catholic Church and Jehovah's is what i really narrowed it down to. I am not so fond of the Watch Tower and Tract Society now but i am not going to totally put it off. I have a new study who is about 30 something. I asked him about Jehovah being a hybrid of Yahweh and Adoni (sp?). He said he never heard of it and that he would not do any research on it for me and that i should not do any more research on it so I am not going to question any thing any more with him because i feel i will just be put down for asking. I will do my own research. lol sorry just a little frustrated. Had to vent .

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by josephback

What about the Eucharist? Is there a legitimate non-Catholic understanding to this sacrament as taught in the Gospels? Jesus seemed pretty clear about it.

Peace,
Joe


P.S. Good for you to look into these things. But beware of false teachers, as there are many. God be with you on your journey

THey think that only the people in the 144,000 (the ones going to heaven) should take part in eating the bread and wine. Every one else just passes it. They do it once a year.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

Is this the passage you're referring too?



There was another Lazarus that Christ spoke about. It was clear that there were two different places in that story.

I am not sure were it is right now here is a few other vrs. the JWs use to support their thought. Ezek. 18:4, 20
Ps. 146:4

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

I am not sure were it is right now here is a few other vrs. the JWs use to support their thought. Ezek. 18:4, 20
Ps. 146:4

It appears we're picking 'pieces' of the Bible out to support a view. It also appears we would be placing scriptures into a position of contradicting each other.

Who is the great cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us?

Heb 12:1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Were Elias and Moses no longer of this earth, when they appeared with Jesus?

Mar 9:4 (9:3) And there appeared to them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Was Jesus wrong when He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that day?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Did the rich man know anything when he spoke to Abraham about speaking to his brothers?

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Luk 16:23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither.
Luk 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren,
Luk 16:28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
Luk 16:29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

Read Revelation 6:9-11, 20:4

Wis 3:1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them.
Wis 3:2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery:
Wis 3:3 And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace.
Wis 3:4 And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality.
Wis 3:5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.
Wis 3:6 As gold in the furnace, he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust, he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

It appears we're picking 'pieces' of the Bible out to support a view. It also appears we would be placing scriptures into a position of contradicting each other.

Who is the great cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us?



Were Elias and Moses no longer of this earth, when they appeared with Jesus?



Was Jesus wrong when He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise that day?


Did the rich man know anything when he spoke to Abraham about speaking to his brothers?


Read Revelation 6:9-11, 20:4

Abraham is in heaven? JWs say that no one in the old testament will be in heaven. Wow. i have never seen these scriptures. I have been lied to. Wow. It's hurtful . Wow so people do go to heaven. But what does it mean when it says the dead know nothing?

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

Abraham is in heaven? JWs say that no one in the old testament will be in heaven. Wow. i have never seen these scriptures. I have been lied to. Wow. It's hurtful . Wow so people do go to heaven. But what does it mean when it says the dead know nothing?

The dead know nothing? Who are the great cloud of witnesses concerned with our well being? Did the Rich man know anything when he asked if he could warn his brothers?

Scriptures do not contradict themselves. They are misinterpreted at times though.

[Prodigal Son1]

Hey Lenny,

Here's one for you.

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

If the dead knew nothing, why did Christ preach to those spirits, once he had been crucified and before He resurrected?

[icamay]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

Abraham is in heaven? JWs say that no one in the old testament will be in heaven. Wow. i have never seen these scriptures. I have been lied to. Wow. It's hurtful .

It was not intentional. This is why I left Protestantism all together. It has been my experience that I was being led by men and not God - men who meant well, but who just spun an idea from an opinion formed by someone else's opinion that spun from another's opinion. The scriptures have begun to make sense as a whole when I study them from the Catholic teachings. The word of God says what it says.

[LennyUSA]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

Hey Lenny,

Here's one for you.


If the dead knew nothing, why did Christ preach to those spirits, once he had been crucified and before He resurrected?

Ok, I know the deadknow nothing and I know the scripture does not contradict themselves I am just curious as to what the scriptures mean when they say the dead know nothing. Obviously it does not literally mean they know nothing out of the things you have showed me using scripture.

[Prodigal Son1]

Originally Posted by LennyUSA

Ok, I know the deadknow nothing and I know the scripture does not contradict themselves I am just curious as to what the scriptures mean when they say the dead know nothing. Obviously it does not literally mean they know nothing out of the things you have showed me using scripture.

I have shown you where the dead had to know something, or else Christ would not have preached to them. What verse are you referring too? We'll look at it together.