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  #1  
Old Apr 24, '11, 8:48 pm
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Madaglan Madaglan is offline
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Default Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Christ is Risen!

I recently was watching a video of Pre-Sanctified Liturgy at a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (ACROD) parish. The video shows the Let My Prayer Ascend to you like incense part, and it shows the priest kneeling and censing before the altar. One of my Orthodox friends at church commented that kneeling before the altar like this is a Romanization (i.e. Latinization). Is this true?

He also said that the chant is not Carpatho-Russian (I thought it was prostopinije), and that the icons look Frankish (I think they do look a little Western, but nothing much different from many ROCOR and Russian churches).

Since ACROD is close to Ruthenian Catholics in tradition and history, I thought others here might know about this.

Here is the video if you're interested in watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anked...eature=related
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  #2  
Old Apr 24, '11, 9:42 pm
Cecilianus Cecilianus is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Truly He is Risen!

I've never seen that before. I can't answer from a historical point of view, but it sure looks like a Latinization to me. And if that was prostopinije, it wasn't any prostopinije I've ever heard before. The icons were in that awful Western style that Tsar Peter (spare me the **** about "the Great") afflicted the Church with.

I love the West in its proper place and context, but remind me to stay away from Binghamton NY.
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  #3  
Old Apr 25, '11, 4:04 am
rowlands rowlands is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

The priest should stand to cense, first before the Holy Table, then before the Prothesis, and for the final repetition of "let my prayer" he puts aside the censer and kneels before the Holy Table.

XB
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  #4  
Old Apr 25, '11, 4:39 am
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

I'm far from an expert in Byzantine practice, but the censing-while-kneeling business certainly does seem like a latinization. It even "looks wrong" to the eye. The movements are clumsy, and it just doesn't seem to "fit" (if anyone understands what I mean).

The only times I've seen it done that way have been in certain Oriental Churches and even then only during "imported" services such as benediction, where the censer is even held and swung (if one can call it that) in the Latin way.
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  #5  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:06 am
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Madaglan Madaglan is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecilianus View Post
Truly He is Risen!

I've never seen that before. I can't answer from a historical point of view, but it sure looks like a Latinization to me. And if that was prostopinije, it wasn't any prostopinije I've ever heard before. The icons were in that awful Western style that Tsar Peter (spare me the **** about "the Great") afflicted the Church with.

I love the West in its proper place and context, but remind me to stay away from Binghamton NY.
The hymn, to my ears, sounds quite similiar to what I've heard in another ACROD parish, as well as a Ruthenian parish I used to attend. So, I think the hymn is prostopinije. This video seems to give an example of what it should sound like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3KgY...h_response_rev
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  #6  
Old Apr 25, '11, 6:50 am
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madaglan View Post
Christ is Risen!

I recently was watching a video of Pre-Sanctified Liturgy at a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (ACROD) parish. The video shows the Let My Prayer Ascend to you like incense part, and it shows the priest kneeling and censing before the altar. One of my Orthodox friends at church commented that kneeling before the altar like this is a Romanization (i.e. Latinization). Is this true?

He also said that the chant is not Carpatho-Russian (I thought it was prostopinije), and that the icons look Frankish (I think they do look a little Western, but nothing much different from many ROCOR and Russian churches).

Since ACROD is close to Ruthenian Catholics in tradition and history, I thought others here might know about this.

Here is the video if you're interested in watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anked...eature=related
It may be a Latinization, but it is not on Sunday, so the Conciliar the prohibition against kneeling does not apply.

It may even be more appropriate in a penetential season, but it seems to be (not sure about this) an ACROD custom, which might make sense considering it's long association under the Union of Uzhorod.
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  #7  
Old Apr 25, '11, 9:03 am
dvdjs dvdjs is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Madaglan, your Orthodox friend is dead wrong about the refrain: it is standard CR prostopinije. (see also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOFLytIrrw4).

The elaborate melismatic prostopinije chant for the verses (http://www.patronagechurch.com/chant...ostopinije.htm)
is being used here, and is not widely used AFAIK. But there is a nice English setting for them in Drillock's (OCA) anthology. (It is not easy to sing well, but, of course, easy to sing poorly, and probably should not be widely used.)

Cecilianus, Your loss.
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  #8  
Old Apr 25, '11, 12:06 pm
ciero ciero is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
It may be a Latinization, but it is not on Sunday, so the Conciliar the prohibition against kneeling does not apply.

It may even be more appropriate in a penetential season, but it seems to be (not sure about this) an ACROD custom, which might make sense considering it's long association under the Union of Uzhorod.
Why would it be a Latinization? In Greek usage (I've seen it on Mt Athos) as well as Russian usage (I've seen it it numerous monasteries in Russia and Serbia), the priest kneels while the choir sings, and the choir kneels while the priest sings. I've never seen it done any differently. What makes you think Latinization? There is much kneeling and prostrations during Lent.
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  #9  
Old Apr 25, '11, 12:10 pm
Formosus Formosus is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

I do not know much about the Ruthenian or ACROD liturgical uses, but the chant definitely sounds like the same sort of stuff I have heard when visiting Ruthenian churches. The chant is definitely not a latinization if that is what is being implied I guess . The iconography definitely looks a bit western, but it still looks like a good parish and I would have no qualms attending there.
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  #10  
Old Apr 25, '11, 1:09 pm
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

It sounds like a Latinization to me. The priest, at least as I have always seen it, makes three prostrations before the altar, but does not just kneel there for an extended period of time.

ACROD was a part of the Ruthenian Church and perhaps it has kept some of the Latinizations present in that Church dating back to the 1930s.
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  #11  
Old Apr 25, '11, 1:50 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
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Smile Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciero View Post
Why would it be a Latinization? In Greek usage (I've seen it on Mt Athos) as well as Russian usage (I've seen it it numerous monasteries in Russia and Serbia), the priest kneels while the choir sings, and the choir kneels while the priest sings. I've never seen it done any differently. What makes you think Latinization? There is much kneeling and prostrations during Lent.
I said it may be, since others brought it up, but I did not offer the opinion that it definitely is.

There is nothing wrong with it on a penetential day. I don't remember a priest kneeling at the altar, but outside of it yes. My experience is not as widespread as yours.
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  #12  
Old Apr 25, '11, 2:14 pm
malphono malphono is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ciero View Post
Why would it be a Latinization? In Greek usage (I've seen it on Mt Athos) as well as Russian usage (I've seen it it numerous monasteries in Russia and Serbia), the priest kneels while the choir sings, and the choir kneels while the priest sings. I've never seen it done any differently. What makes you think Latinization? There is much kneeling and prostrations during Lent.
I was under the impression that, despite the title of the thread, the issue was the priest censing while kneeling, not simply the matter of him kneeling by itself.

Could well be I'm mistaken about that, but it was the reason for my earlier post on just that issue.
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  #13  
Old Apr 25, '11, 3:19 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

We do the same thing but the priest doesn't incense the altar while kneeling. I kneel on the opposite side with a candle (I'm serving) and we go around the altar. We would get up and the priest would incense while singing his part of the hymn.
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  #14  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:25 pm
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Vico Vico is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madaglan View Post
Christ is Risen!

I recently was watching a video of Pre-Sanctified Liturgy at a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (ACROD) parish. The video shows the Let My Prayer Ascend to you like incense part, and it shows the priest kneeling and censing before the altar. One of my Orthodox friends at church commented that kneeling before the altar like this is a Romanization (i.e. Latinization). Is this true?

He also said that the chant is not Carpatho-Russian (I thought it was prostopinije), and that the icons look Frankish (I think they do look a little Western, but nothing much different from many ROCOR and Russian churches).

Since ACROD is close to Ruthenian Catholics in tradition and history, I thought others here might know about this.

Here is the video if you're interested in watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anked...eature=related
Stange comment indeed! Kneeling is Orthodox and Catholic, from ancient times. Have you heard of the Kneeling Vespers on the evening of Pentecost? (And no kneeling from Pasch till the evening of Pentecost.)

The Fathers of the Church have recommended bowing the head on Sundays, the Day of the Lord's Resurrection. The lowest postures are penitential. There is also a deep bow (including touching the floor).

There are eight postures used in the Eastern Churches:
1 standing
2 sitting
3 inclining of the head and neck (bow)
4 bowing at the waist (deep bow)
5 bending the knees (kneeling)
6 standing on the knees (also called kneeling)
7 momentary touching the forehead to the floor (prostration)

8 longer bow to the earth (full prostration)
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  #15  
Old Apr 25, '11, 5:34 pm
5Loaves 5Loaves is offline
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Default Re: Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

The kneeling and of course prostrations are something I've seen plenty of in Russian and Greek Orthodox especially during our services in Great Lent.

I've never seen a priest incense while kneeling. That is new to me.
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