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  #46  
Old May 5, '11, 8:03 pm
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

My Anglican parish is mixed. Even some married couples are mixed! There is one couple I know where the husband claims he's a staunch Protestant, the wife a proud catholic, both Anglican. That bi-polar side of things did grate on my nerves!

The monarchy did have something to do with it but guys like Thomas Cranmer and his cronies like Martin Bucer and Ridley and Latimer and the gang did a lot to taint the waters with a lot of Calvinism....things got real murky. The 16th Century must've been a psychadelic trip of topsy-turvy theology. I can't imagine living in those times!? But then again, living in these times is pretty weird!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
Hey Gurney,
I agree that Calvinism did taint a part of Anglican history. The swing from Catholic to Protestant and Protestant to Catholic had much to do with the fact that the Monarchy is the head of the Church of England. Of course, you know Anglican history far better than I do.

Today in the US, some Anglicans are much closer to their Catholic roots, which is the case in my Parish. I doubt few in our congregation would say they are Protestant. Even our Confirmation Classes contain the statement that we are one of the three Catholic faiths: Anglican Catholics, Orthodox Catholics, and Catholics in Communion with Rome. Of course the Orthodox and Catholics in Communion in Rome would disagree. It's all a matter of perspective.

BTW, GKC said he may give the word "motley" to you.

Anna
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  #47  
Old May 6, '11, 5:44 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
Today in the US, some Anglicans are ...
Now this is what I don't understand. Isn't part of being an Anglican the recognition that the British monarch is the titular head of the Church? So how can you be a true Anglican in the U.S.? Since the Church of England is a national church, don't you sever relationship with them when you emigrate? Don't you mean the Episcopal Church? I don't know exactly how that works in relation to the monarch and clerics. Is that another national church having a still different theology? Don't get me wrong, I as a cradle Catholic wouldn't feel comfortable in either even if they were to join Rome, but just asking.
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  #48  
Old May 6, '11, 6:59 am
Tomster Tomster is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

Just an insight given by Michael Davies in his book "The Order of Melchisedech."

"But it does appear that some Anglican clerics have managed to obtain valid Orders. There have, apparently, been cases of Anglican ministers persuading Old Catholic Bishops to ordain them using the Old Catholic Ordinal. In such cases, valid orders would be received - although it would be hard to explain the mentality of men who are content to adhere to a denomination when they have so little confidence of its Orders that they find it necessary to undergo a second ceremony outside its boundaries."

Earlier in the book Davies states that, "The fact that Old Catholic Bishops have taken part in Anglican ordinations has no bearing upon the validity of the Orders received if the Anglican Ordinal was used. As should have been made sufficiently clear already, even an authorized minister with the correct intention cannot confer a sacrament validly by using an invalid rite. Hence, valid Orders would not have been conferred . . . . "
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  #49  
Old May 6, '11, 7:01 am
Tomster Tomster is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by AmbroseSJ View Post
The problem is not with the Bishops of Henry VIII. It is during Elizabeth's reign that ALL of the Catholic bishops were deposed from their sees. There were NO Catholic bishops left ordaining Anglican Bishops. Therefore there were NO valid Bishops ordaining priests either. Elizabeth installed her own Protestant bishops using the Edward VI form.

Point taken.
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  #50  
Old May 6, '11, 8:29 am
nhylan nhylan is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by Tomster View Post
Point taken.
This is not true at all. All the bishops that ordained the first Archbishop of Canterbury when Elizabeth took over were all former Catholic bishops. Matthew Parker was ordained by William Barlow, John Scory, and Miles Coverdale. All validly ordained Catholic Bishops. You are free to argue that the rite they used was invalid, as thats the only leg your argument has in this instance but you cannot say that there were no validly ordained Bishops at Parker's ordination.
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  #51  
Old May 6, '11, 8:49 am
gurneyhalleck1 gurneyhalleck1 is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

I think his argument is based on a different point of view with the bishops. As he said, they were deposed bishops no longer in good standing with the Catholic Church so he is making the argument that they weren't able to consecrate Parker. The problem with his argument is that it goes off of a more Orthodox St. Cyprian view of orders....that is, that apostolic sacramental powers become murky and possibly worthless when one steps outside the boundaries of the Church herself. That Cyprianic view of the transmission of holy orders doesn't exist in Catholic thinking so the argument is incongruous IMO. The Catholic view comes more from Augustine that a rogue bishop could leave the CC and confect sacraments validly BUT they'd be "illicit." As for the actual consecrations of new bishops, I'm not sure if the CC has ever said that a rogue bishop from Catholicism could actually consecrate a new bishop in schism who would be valid. In that case, perhaps the poster's Cyprianic view might come into place?

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Originally Posted by nhylan View Post
This is not true at all. All the bishops that ordained the first Archbishop of Canterbury when Elizabeth took over were all former Catholic bishops. Matthew Parker was ordained by William Barlow, John Scory, and Miles Coverdale. All validly ordained Catholic Bishops. You are free to argue that the rite they used was invalid, as thats the only leg your argument has in this instance but you cannot say that there were no validly ordained Bishops at Parker's ordination.
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  #52  
Old May 6, '11, 9:39 am
pablope pablope is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by nhylan View Post
This is not true at all. All the bishops that ordained the first Archbishop of Canterbury when Elizabeth took over were all former Catholic bishops. Matthew Parker was ordained by William Barlow, John Scory, and Miles Coverdale. All validly ordained Catholic Bishops. You are free to argue that the rite they used was invalid, as thats the only leg your argument has in this instance but you cannot say that there were no validly ordained Bishops at Parker's ordination.

True maybe...but where the Bishops ordaining with Rome's approval or approval of the Queen only?

If it was not sanctioned by Rome, then the ordination is not valid, it is valid only with the eyes of the Queen.

Another question...where the bishops separated from Rome at this point? I think they were, for ordaining someone without Rome's approval is rebellion and disobedience to the authority of the Church. Another question is where they excommunicated at this point prior to the ordination? This is another point of why the Anglican order is invalid.
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  #53  
Old May 6, '11, 9:39 am
nhylan nhylan is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
I think his argument is based on a different point of view with the bishops. As he said, they were deposed bishops no longer in good standing with the Catholic Church so he is making the argument that they weren't able to consecrate Parker. The problem with his argument is that it goes off of a more Orthodox St. Cyprian view of orders....that is, that apostolic sacramental powers become murky and possibly worthless when one steps outside the boundaries of the Church herself. That Cyprianic view of the transmission of holy orders doesn't exist in Catholic thinking so the argument is incongruous IMO. The Catholic view comes more from Augustine that a rogue bishop could leave the CC and confect sacraments validly BUT they'd be "illicit." As for the actual consecrations of new bishops, I'm not sure if the CC has ever said that a rogue bishop from Catholicism could actually consecrate a new bishop in schism who would be valid. In that case, perhaps the poster's Cyprianic view might come into place?
Wouldn't Orthodox bishops be considered outside the Catholic Church? The Roman Catholic church views their orders as valid correct?
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  #54  
Old May 6, '11, 9:57 am
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Anna Scott Anna Scott is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
Now this is what I don't understand. Isn't part of being an Anglican the recognition that the British monarch is the titular head of the Church? So how can you be a true Anglican in the U.S.? Since the Church of England is a national church, don't you sever relationship with them when you emigrate? Don't you mean the Episcopal Church? I don't know exactly how that works in relation to the monarch and clerics. Is that another national church having a still different theology? Don't get me wrong, I as a cradle Catholic wouldn't feel comfortable in either even if they were to join Rome, but just asking.
The Monarch is the head of the Church of England, which had quite an impact on the history of the Church of England.

However, The Episcopal Church is not under the Monarch of England. We are in communion with the Church of England. My Church is Episcopalian.

Anna
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  #55  
Old May 6, '11, 10:02 am
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Anna Scott Anna Scott is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
My Anglican parish is mixed. Even some married couples are mixed! There is one couple I know where the husband claims he's a staunch Protestant, the wife a proud catholic, both Anglican. That bi-polar side of things did grate on my nerves!

The monarchy did have something to do with it but guys like Thomas Cranmer and his cronies like Martin Bucer and Ridley and Latimer and the gang did a lot to taint the waters with a lot of Calvinism....things got real murky. The 16th Century must've been a psychadelic trip of topsy-turvy theology. I can't imagine living in those times!? But then again, living in these times is pretty weird!
Indeed they did, yet I find no hint of Calvinism in my Parish. You're right, the views are mixed regarding Protestant and Catholic leanings----and a boat load of other things, which I won't bring up. I don't feel like taking a beating today.

Anna
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  #56  
Old May 6, '11, 10:04 am
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FromTheAshes777 FromTheAshes777 is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by pablope View Post
True maybe...but where the Bishops ordaining with Rome's approval or approval of the Queen only?

If it was not sanctioned by Rome, then the ordination is not valid, it is valid only with the eyes of the Queen.

Another question...where the bishops separated from Rome at this point? I think they were, for ordaining someone without Rome's approval is rebellion and disobedience to the authority of the Church. Another question is where they excommunicated at this point prior to the ordination? This is another point of why the Anglican order is invalid.
ordination does not have to be sanctioned by Rome in order to be valid, only to be licit
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  #57  
Old May 6, '11, 10:24 am
pablope pablope is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by FromTheAshes777 View Post
ordination does not have to be sanctioned by Rome in order to be valid, only to be licit
I think this is the case for a priest. How about for a bishop? I think for a bishop, it has to be sanctioned by Rome, but I stand corrected if my thinking is wrong.
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  #58  
Old May 6, '11, 10:29 am
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Anna Scott Anna Scott is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by pablope View Post
True maybe...but where the Bishops ordaining with Rome's approval or approval of the Queen only?

If it was not sanctioned by Rome, then the ordination is not valid, it is valid only with the eyes of the Queen.

Another question...where the bishops separated from Rome at this point? I think they were, for ordaining someone without Rome's approval is rebellion and disobedience to the authority of the Church. Another question is where they excommunicated at this point prior to the ordination? This is another point of why the Anglican order is invalid.
I agree with this Orthodox view:

"The Primacy of Peter," Chapter 2, Peter's Primacy In The New Testament And The Early Tradition, Veselin Kesich, page 57:
"For Karl Rahner, the post-resurrection experiences of Christ's disciples are "strictly sui generis, and they belong to the very origin of the Church. No one can succeed to the unique status promised to the twelve (Lk 22:30). The apostles cannot hand over their places in a kingdom appointed to them, nor can Peter transfer his role as the rock of the first Church in Christ.

Only the church as a whole succeeds to these apostolic privileges. The apostles' successor is the apostolic church, which possesses the fullness of apostolic tradition and with which Christ identifies himself. (Acts 9:4). Every bishop in the apostolic church who occupies the place which Peter occupied at the eucharistic gathering, and who performs the pastoral duties which Peter performed, is the successor to the apostle.

But no bishop can succeed to Peter's unique place as a member of the twelve, as the first witness of the resurrection, and as the first head of the first assembly in Christ. Both the New Testament and the early history of the church are in full agreement on this point."


The Anglican Church can trace Apostolic succession regardless of whether or not the Bishops who left the communion of Rome ordained Anglican Bishops. An ordination does not pass on a power of any human being.. One is ordained through the power of the Holy Trinity.
Anna
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  #59  
Old May 6, '11, 6:27 pm
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Originally Posted by pablope View Post
I think this is the case for a priest. How about for a bishop? I think for a bishop, it has to be sanctioned by Rome, but I stand corrected if my thinking is wrong.
In order for the ordination of a Catholic Bishop to be licit (done in accordance with the rules) then it must be sanctioned by Rome. But Rome's approval is not required for it to be valid (done in accordance with doctrine). Proper form and intent are required for validity.

The Church recognizes the validity of of the Orders of several organizations which She is not in communion with (most notably the Greek Orthodox). None of these churches seek Rome's approval when ordaining a new Bishop.

And the Church has never disputed the validity of the Orders of the four Bishops ordained by Catholic Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in 1988 against the wishes of the Pope (although they were all promptly excommunicated).
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  #60  
Old May 6, '11, 6:46 pm
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DavidFilmer DavidFilmer is offline
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Default Re: Why does the Church of England have invalid holy orders?

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Indeed they did, yet I find no hint of Calvinism in my Parish.
Actually, I'm pretty sure you are completely surrounded by Calvinism. There are several copies of the Book of Common Prayer in every pew, right? Open up your Book of Common Prayer (1928 or 1979 - doesn't matter) and turn to the 39 Articles of your Faith. There's nothing there that Calvin would object to. You can read about Sola Fide in Article 11, Sola Scriptura in Article 6 and 20, and the denial of the Real Presence of the Eucharist in Article 28.

And what about that big doctrine that everyone associates with Calvin? Predestination. Article 27.
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