Is NFP a frustration or a blessing in your marriage?

[Belle10]

[quote=searching04;7987445]You are correct in the frustration part. Blessing is not true for everyone.[quote]

Just because it's frustrating while you're in it doesn't mean it won't end up being a blessing later.

The many sufferings endured by the early Christians have certainly resulted in many, many blessing for us (and them no doubt)!

Originally Posted by searching04

You're right on church teachings as well, for the most part. I don't have questions on dogma. I just question this one, as well as on the death penalty and dealing with illegals. Those aren't dogma; to me, the teachings on sex fall into that, but it all depends on what is in the couples hearts as well (on sex), but the church does not allow that; we're just told we're wrong.

I think there are many people for whom a change in perception would benefit them greatly. The Church isn't trying to tell everyone they're wrong, it's trying to guide us to what is right! It's not about guilting us, it's about guiding us to reconciliation with God, so we can enjoy His love now and in heaven one day!

I had my years of premarital sex, ABC, etc. I didn't understand Church teaching; I didn't want to. Once I opened my heart to letting God speak to me and I read and talked with people here and really learned the beauty of the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality, I was so happy! To know and be part of such a beautiful plan -- made by God -- brings such peace and joy. The kind of joy that even a never-ending Phase III could never get close to!

The day to day struggles of NFP can be extremely difficult. Today is my 8th wedding anniversary and we won't be "celebrating" the way we long to, since we need to avoid pregnancy right now and it's Phase II (and we haven't "celebrated" at all since the end of January!). Despite this frustration, I know that God is giving me strength and love to endure this challenge.

[Belle10]

Originally Posted by Persuader

Here is the problem: human action. Humans are action-taking agents. If you believe in free will, as Christianity espouses, humans are meant to take actions and be responsible for the consequences of those actions. God is not supposed to interfere. So, why are you compelled to think that human actions taken in regards to children suddenly comes under the control of God?

It seems less than obvious that we are meant to take responsibility for our lives except when it comes to our children. Here, you claim, we are supposed to just let nature take its course. And if things to turn out for the worse? Well, it was God’s will that you lost your house and your job because you couldn’t manage to juggle 6 kids with all the other responsibilities of your life. It will turn out for the best in the end, trust me… Please.

No one said we are not to be responsible for whether we have children or not. In fact, supporters of Church teaching and NFP have repeatedly stated that responsible parenthood is what we are called to.

We do believe in free will, but we also believe that God is active in our lives. We don't think he created us and just sits there watching to see what happens. He doesn't force us to love him, follow the teachings of the Church he established, or anything else. But when we ask for his help in our lives, he is there and responds! He lets us choose to invite him into our lives and hearts, he never forces his way in.

I know it's not always easy, but either we follow Church teaching or we don't. Simple as that.

[Persuader]

Originally Posted by Belle10

No one said we are not to be responsible for whether we have children or not. In fact, supporters of Church teaching and NFP have repeatedly stated that responsible parenthood is what we are called to.

We do believe in free will, but we also believe that God is active in our lives. We don't think he created us and just sits there watching to see what happens. He doesn't force us to love him, follow the teachings of the Church he established, or anything else. But when we ask for his help in our lives, he is there and responds! He lets us choose to invite him into our lives and hearts, he never forces his way in.

I know it's not always easy, but either we follow Church teaching or we don't. Simple as that.

The quote I replied to stated that since God knows how to balance the universe etc. he also knows how to arrange it with children. This implies that God arranges whether or not you have a child, and that it isn’t your actions that determine it. I agree, of course, that NFP and other practices imply that we are in fact responsible. We can control whether or not we have children. That is not solely in Gods domain.

However, if you read some of the other posts in the thread, they have repeatedly said things to the effect of what I quoted, thus the necessity of my post.

[searching04]

[quote=Belle10;7987757][quote=searching04;7987445]You are correct in the frustration part. Blessing is not true for everyone.

Just because it's frustrating while you're in it doesn't mean it won't end up being a blessing later.

The many sufferings endured by the early Christians have certainly resulted in many, many blessing for us (and them no doubt)!



I think there are many people for whom a change in perception would benefit them greatly. The Church isn't trying to tell everyone they're wrong, it's trying to guide us to what is right! It's not about guilting us, it's about guiding us to reconciliation with God, so we can enjoy His love now and in heaven one day!

But it is guilting - read the words used. And we are told we are wrong, in those words and here. Maybe wrong, maybe not; the issue is people disagree, and this all may well be agree to disagree.


I had my years of premarital sex, ABC, etc. I didn't understand Church teaching; I didn't want to. Once I opened my heart to letting God speak to me and I read and talked with people here and really learned the beauty of the Church's teaching on marriage and sexuality, I was so happy! To know and be part of such a beautiful plan -- made by God -- brings such peace and joy. The kind of joy that even a never-ending Phase III could never get close to!

The day to day struggles of NFP can be extremely difficult. Today is my 8th wedding anniversary and we won't be "celebrating" the way we long to, since we need to avoid pregnancy right now and it's Phase II (and we haven't "celebrated" at all since the end of January!). Despite this frustration, I know that God is giving me strength and love to endure this challenge.

[searching04]

Originally Posted by Belle10

No one said we are not to be responsible for whether we have children or not. In fact, supporters of Church teaching and NFP have repeatedly stated that responsible parenthood is what we are called to.


But the implication and contracdictions are there: one poster said NFP is not procreative during phase 3, others say go ahead and have sex because God will decide wheher you have kids or not. Then the church throws up its hands and says well, if you do havve sex, it is God's will if you have a kid, but you're supposed to be responsible for whether we have kids or not. Logic, as someone put it, doesn't flow. Oh, byt he way be unselfish and have sex to have more kids. 'Round and 'round.

We do believe in free will, but we also believe that God is active in our lives. We don't think he created us and just sits there watching to see what happens. He doesn't force us to love him, follow the teachings of the Church he established, or anything else. But when we ask for his help in our lives, he is there and responds! He lets us choose to invite him into our lives and hearts, he never forces his way in.

I know it's not always easy, but either we follow Church teaching or we don't. Simple as that.

[searching04]

What I find interesting and intriguing is that a poster said there was a minority opion on Humanae Vitae or TOB, forgot which, but it apparently stated that the reasons behind not approving ABC methods was it would open up the whole infalibility thing to questions.

So there are bishops and cardinals who do not believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church to the correct decision in this? And someone had said this isn't a democracy, so how do bishops and cardinals decide this? Yep, there is prayer, but do they submit a report to the Pope and he makes a final decision? Shoot, they vote for the Pope for goodness sake, so yeah, there is a "democracy".

And there was the implication in an answer somewhere that even said those bishops, etc were not following the Holy Spirit. Wow. So any disagreement with the majority opinion is also depraved, illicit, unnatural, disordered? Have to wonder.

Makes me feel a tad bit better that even ordained leaders in the church disagree....not much, but it is something.

[sacredcello]

Originally Posted by benedictus2

No she didn't and she still doesn't. Or have you not been listening to the "grave reason" qualifier that has been mentioned often times here.

Benedictus2, I appreciate all your posts and have been edified by them. I just wanted to say one thing about this. I know that in Humanae Vitae there is the phrase "grave reason" for spacing births. However, in the NFP classes, as taught by the Couple to Couple League (which was founded in 1971 as a direct response to Humanae Vitae), there is no mention of "grave reason" at any point in the 9 hrs of instruction that couples receive. My understanding is that the League has decided that it is best to leave these decisions to the couples. It is not that CCL is purposefully misrepresenting Church teaching. I think the idea is that we now live in a culture that is so incredibly hostile to the very idea of NFP (as witnessed by some of the above posts), that if the classes were to emphasize "grave reasons" that couples would be more likely to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Again, it is not that the teaching on regulation of births has changed. Not at all. Sex has always needed to be primarily ordered toward procreation (i.e. not drugged/barred/cut/manipulated) from the very beginning and this remains true today.

[sacredcello]

Originally Posted by searching04

But the implication and contracdictions are there: one poster said NFP is not procreative during phase 3, others say go ahead and have sex because God will decide wheher you have kids or not. Then the church throws up its hands and says

Sex during any phase of a woman's cycle, if the couple are married, can never be illicit. The Church does not throw up Her hands when guiding the faithful in any important area of their lives. If someone in CAF misrepresents Church teaching, it is still our own obligation as Catholics to find out what is true.

I would just like to repost what Jennifer J wrote about a week ago, because she very aptly responds to some objections to NFP as a legitimate means of spacing births. It is legitimate because the procreative meaning of the marital act is retained:

Originally Posted by Jennifer J

The Church only states what IS. Marital sex IS both unitive and procreative. That's its basic purpose. Sex makes babies and it unites the couples. You can't have one without the other because it then distorts the act. ....
I'm not scared of what the Church teaches, I embrace it. It is liberating.

[Mary Gail 36]

Originally Posted by searching04

What I find interesting and intriguing is that a poster said there was a minority opion on Humanae Vitae or TOB, forgot which, but it apparently stated that the reasons behind not approving ABC methods was it would open up the whole infalibility thing to questions.

So there are bishops and cardinals who do not believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church to the correct decision in this? And someone had said this isn't a democracy, so how do bishops and cardinals decide this? Yep, there is prayer, but do they submit a report to the Pope and he makes a final decision? Shoot, they vote for the Pope for goodness sake, so yeah, there is a "democracy".

And there was the implication in an answer somewhere that even said those bishops, etc were not following the Holy Spirit. Wow. So any disagreement with the majority opinion is also depraved, illicit, unnatural, disordered? Have to wonder.

Makes me feel a tad bit better that even ordained leaders in the church disagree....not much, but it is something.

TOB is a series of talks by Pope John Paul.

I think you are referring to Humanae Vitae. Pope John Paul at the time addressed the so called minority report by stating that if ABC were permissible, there would have been grave error in the Church for years. Since the Holy Spirit guides the Church, it could not have been in error.

Pope John Paul was not saying, "Well, ABC is fine and dandy....we just don't want to give in so we look infallible" Unfortunately, that is what some are trying to make the Cardinal Woytila quote say. I don't think it's fair or accurate.

TOB is not new either. Dietrich Von Hildebrand touched on very similar concepts in the 1940's.

[sacredcello]

Originally Posted by Belle10

Just because it's frustrating while you're in it doesn't mean it won't end up being a blessing later.

The many sufferings endured by the early Christians have certainly resulted in many, many blessing for us (and them no doubt)!

Yes, this is good to remember! We waste so much of our short time on Earth thinking about our own desires and figuring out ways to justify them.

I am praying that the Lord will grant me many fertile years ahead to make up for all of the selfish years I spent using contraception in my youth before I became Catholic. Otherwise, I will be facing the throne of God empty-handed.

[Belle10]

Originally Posted by Persuader

The quote I replied to stated that since God knows how to balance the universe etc. he also knows how to arrange it with children. This implies that God arranges whether or not you have a child, and that it isn’t your actions that determine it. I agree, of course, that NFP and other practices imply that we are in fact responsible. We can control whether or not we have children. That is not solely in Gods domain.

However, if you read some of the other posts in the thread, they have repeatedly said things to the effect of what I quoted, thus the necessity of my post.

Since you didn't quote what you referring to, I didn't realize that's what it was.

God created a woman's body to be fertile sometimes and infertile other times. While he is, of course, the keeper of our lives and all we really have is this very minute, he also created us so that our actions DO have something to do with whether a child is conceived. We do have some control. I think that's what is difficult for so many people -- that they don't have ALL the control (unless they completely abstain).

Originally Posted by searching04

But it is guilting - read the words used. And we are told we are wrong, in those words and here. Maybe wrong, maybe not; the issue is people disagree, and this all may well be agree to disagree.

If we are told certain acts are wrong, it is because they are. The purpose is not to make us feel badly, it is to lead us from darkness into the light! There are moral absolutes, and simply because some people choose to disagree does not mean that those absolutes don't apply to them. If you choose to disagree with Church teaching that's your prerogative. Disagree with me all you like, but disagreeing with the Church (which was established by and is led by God) is a totally separate matter.

Originally Posted by searching04

But the implication and contracdictions are there: one poster said NFP is not procreative during phase 3, others say go ahead and have sex because God will decide wheher you have kids or not. Then the church throws up its hands and says well, if you do havve sex, it is God's will if you have a kid, but you're supposed to be responsible for whether we have kids or not. Logic, as someone put it, doesn't flow. Oh, byt he way be unselfish and have sex to have more kids. 'Round and 'round.

Generally speaking (don't have the stats right in front of me, but I'm sure it's been stated multiple times in this thread) Phase III is infertile. However, each woman needs to watch her own signs of fertility to accurately determine this. So, generally, Phase III is infertile (but not 100%).

And yes, of course if you have sex and have a child, he or she is your responsibility. Why would the Church say otherwise? That would go against logic. Anytime you have sex there is the possibility of conception (even with ABC) -- it just varies depending on the part of the cycle.

Originally Posted by sacredcello

Yes, this is good to remember! We waste so much of our short time on Earth thinking about our own desires and figuring out ways to justify them.

I am praying that the Lord will grant me many fertile years ahead to make up for all of the selfish years I spent using contraception in my youth before I became Catholic. Otherwise, I will be facing the throne of God empty-handed.

We've all made mistakes, I've been there myself (and I was Catholic at the time). Thankfully we can receive the sacrament of reconciliation and move forward in the light of God's mercy and love!

[samiam1611]

Originally Posted by searching04

What I find interesting and intriguing is that a poster said there was a minority opion on Humanae Vitae or TOB, forgot which, but it apparently stated that the reasons behind not approving ABC methods was it would open up the whole infalibility thing to questions.

So there are bishops and cardinals who do not believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church to the correct decision in this? And someone had said this isn't a democracy, so how do bishops and cardinals decide this? Yep, there is prayer, but do they submit a report to the Pope and he makes a final decision? Shoot, they vote for the Pope for goodness sake, so yeah, there is a "democracy".

And there was the implication in an answer somewhere that even said those bishops, etc were not following the Holy Spirit. Wow. So any disagreement with the majority opinion is also depraved, illicit, unnatural, disordered? Have to wonder.

Makes me feel a tad bit better that even ordained leaders in the church disagree....not much, but it is something.

This may be what you are referring to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifi...ajority_report

Also noteworthy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural...other_opposing
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Statement

Some statistics:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...73D4SZ20110414

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/Relig...eptive-Use.pdf

[benedictus2]

Originally Posted by searching04

Yep, condescenison will get you everywhere.

You judge others in your words as well, and do it well.

So others here have no appreciation for the meaning of life, is that it?

And where exactly was it stated that other have no appreciation for the meaning of life? You really have to start reading posts better and read them with a calm mind or you will keep coming up with this sort of erroneous conclusions.

[benedictus2]

Originally Posted by Mary Gail 36

Although not exactly the same thing, I've seen "swingers' on talk shows claim what they do is not adultery, because the other spouse does not mind.

Excellent point! I hope the logic of that is not lost on the poster

I remember using contraception.

I cannot see how my DH having sex with me when I was fertile, yet not accepting the pregnancy. I was telling him and God, "Well we want to be intimate right now, right when I could conceive, but we don't want the gift of a child"

Why were we being intimate, when I was fertile, yet not wanting the act to result in pregnancy? WE WERE SELFISH!!!

By currently using NFP, we are sacrificing our wants and desires for the good of our family. We do have serious reason to avoid

Praise be to God for the gift of enlightenment and and the humility to see the error and the grace to follow His will.

[benedictus2]

Originally Posted by searching04

No, she was dead on.

Sorry but she was dead wrong. All because she doesn't read posts properly. Same way you don't.