Why is raising money w/indulgences a sin?

[fakename]

It seems reasonable that a priest should ask for money (a donation) as a way to spiritually prepare someone to receive an indulgence, and could use this donation money to fund his church. But this process is called "raising money" and it is good so why should we not be allowed to raise money w/indulgences?

[markomalley]

Originally Posted by fakename

It seems reasonable that a priest should ask for money (a donation) as a way to spiritually prepare someone to receive an indulgence, and could use this donation money to fund his church. But this process is called "raising money" and it is good so why should we not be allowed to raise money w/indulgences?

It sounds like simony:

2121 Simony is defined as the buying or selling of spiritual things. To Simon the magician, who wanted to buy the spiritual power he saw at work in the apostles, St. Peter responded: "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain God's gift with money!" Peter thus held to the words of Jesus: "You received without pay, give without pay." It is impossible to appropriate to oneself spiritual goods and behave toward them as their owner or master, for they have their source in God. One can receive them only from him, without payment.

2122 The minister should ask nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by the competent authority, always being careful that the needy are not deprived of the help of the sacraments because of their poverty." The competent authority determines these "offerings" in accordance with the principle that the Christian people ought to contribute to the support of the Church's ministers. "The laborer deserves his food."

Selling indulgences was the very thing that spurred Luther's schism with the Church. The practice was depreciated by the Council of Trent Sess 25:

Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly.

[Suslar]

Oh if only we could buy God's grace at the store! It would be so nice to walk into the deli counter and ask for "10 lbs of grace, please!"

Seriously, though, the buying and selling of indulgences was one of the practices that Martin Luther took exception too - and rightly so. Sadly, he didn't fight for change within the Church but instead prompted the Protestant revolt.

[fakename]

Originally Posted by markomalley

It sounds like simony:

2121 Simony is defined as the buying or selling of spiritual things. To Simon the magician, who wanted to buy the spiritual power he saw at work in the apostles, St. Peter responded: "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain God's gift with money!" Peter thus held to the words of Jesus: "You received without pay, give without pay." It is impossible to appropriate to oneself spiritual goods and behave toward them as their owner or master, for they have their source in God. One can receive them only from him, without payment.


2122 The minister should ask nothing for the administration of the sacraments beyond the offerings defined by the competent authority, always being careful that the needy are not deprived of the help of the sacraments because of their poverty." The competent authority determines these "offerings" in accordance with the principle that the Christian people ought to contribute to the support of the Church's ministers. "The laborer deserves his food."

Selling indulgences was the very thing that spurred Luther's schism with the Church. The practice was depreciated by the Council of Trent Sess 25:

Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly.

But the person isn't buying the indulgence -he is donating to the church as part of building the dispositions necessary for the indulgence. Meantime, the church now has money.

[Suslar]

Originally Posted by fakename

But the person isn't buying the indulgence -he is donating to the church as part of building the dispositions necessary for the indulgence. Meantime, the church now has money.

I guess I don't really understand what you're asking. What is the priest doing to "spiritually prepare" someone? Many indulgences are granted simply by the individual reciting a prayer. Others require reception of the Sacraments and no one can be forced to pay a fee to receive a Sacrament.

Yet, on the other hand, an inidvidual can donate money to whomever or whatever he wished at any time. If the parish in question needs money, it should not be tied to indulgences. God's grace is freely given and freely should it be received.


Back in the Middle Ages, friars were selling indulgences. People would give money and receive a certificate. Must have been like a "get out of jail free" card or something. It is said that indulgence money bought the construction/renovation of St. Peter's in Rome. Sadly, the practice also lead to division within the Church and the creation of Protestantism.

[fakename]

Originally Posted by Suslar

I guess I don't really understand what you're asking. What is the priest doing to "spiritually prepare" someone? Many indulgences are granted simply by the individual reciting a prayer. Others require reception of the Sacraments and no one can be forced to pay a fee to receive a Sacrament.

Yet, on the other hand, an inidvidual can donate money to whomever or whatever he wished at any time. If the parish in question needs money, it should not be tied to indulgences. God's grace is freely given and freely should it be received.


Back in the Middle Ages, friars were selling indulgences. People would give money and receive a certificate. Must have been like a "get out of jail free" card or something. It is said that indulgence money bought the construction/renovation of St. Peter's in Rome. Sadly, the practice also lead to division within the Church and the creation of Protestantism.

Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, alms giving would naturally hold a conspicuous place, while men would be induced by the same means to contribute to some pious cause such as the building of churches, the endowment of hospitals, or the organization of a crusade. It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil.

This is what I mean. There is no selling, it's just donations and there are already "prices" for indulgences if by prices you mean "conditions". Indulgences were never officially the subject of prices but one could make donations a necessary condition for receiving them. That's not so bad.

[Suslar]

Originally Posted by fakename

Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, alms giving would naturally hold a conspicuous place, while men would be induced by the same means to contribute to some pious cause such as the building of churches, the endowment of hospitals, or the organization of a crusade. It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil.

This is what I mean. There is no selling, it's just donations and there are already "prices" for indulgences if by prices you mean "conditions". Indulgences were never officially the subject of prices but one could make donations a necessary condition for receiving them. That's not so bad.

Now you're just talking semantics. If money is a condition or "price" one has to pay before receiving God's grace in an indulgence, then the indulgence is not legit. God's grace and mercy are free gifts. . . completely undeserved free gifts. The price was already paid on Calvary.

[thistle]

Originally Posted by fakename

But the person isn't buying the indulgence -he is donating to the church as part of building the dispositions necessary for the indulgence. Meantime, the church now has money.

If you think that then you are naive. If an indulgence is conditional upon payment of money (donation is same thing) then you are buying an indulgence.
Money in any shape or form should not change hands.