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  #1  
Old May 23, '11, 8:40 pm
MaryRocks! MaryRocks! is offline
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Default Men who refuse to abstain

First, I want to say that I do not want this to be a male bashing thread.



I have however seen a pattern both in my life and in the life of friends. We are told (recently even when Jason Evert was on), that if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them. Well, they haven't. Only a few have, compared to the general Catholic population. And they are married. There are also countless single women who can testify that their men don't meet the standards but rather find a woman who will not follow the Church's teachings.

Then, I had an argument about contraception and tried to explain NFP, and finally my friend said in exasperation that it doesn't work. She cited how she knew many who tried it and still got pregnant. And, she added that their husbands refuse to abstain and since they won't cooperate, a woman does not have a choice but to use contraception, because he will leave, or find a girlfriend. And then I see that that is exactly what happens (three recent cases where the man found a girlfriend because the wife insisted on NFP).

We try to defend the Church's teaching, but don't see a lot of cooperation from our male counterparts.
How does a woman not get discouraged or cynical when faced with this? How can we respect men when faced with this? I want to respect them!
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  #2  
Old May 23, '11, 9:00 pm
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Havard Havard is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

By not abstaining, I assume you mean these men *do* want to have sex, only with artificial birth control during the fertile times?

I can't answer for men, but I can answer for me. I don't plan on using ABC, ever. I'm a 34 y/o man, and I hope to meet a wonderful Catholic woman who feels the same way.
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  #3  
Old May 23, '11, 9:03 pm
MaryRocks! MaryRocks! is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Both kinds, abstaining before marriage and abstaining from sex in marriage from time to time.

As for your assertion about never using abc: Thank God for you!

And may God bless you!
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  #4  
Old May 23, '11, 9:06 pm
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Havard Havard is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Well, bless you too!
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  #5  
Old May 23, '11, 9:19 pm
exoflare exoflare is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

I have the same frustration as you, but in reverse.
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  #6  
Old May 23, '11, 9:29 pm
cmscms cmscms is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

The trouble is, it doesn't matter what the moral issue is, very few people want to follow the church's teachings.

As for the men who won't meet the purity standard so they find another girl, they IMHO fall under 2 categories,

1-)The single guy who finds a woman who will have sex, never really loved his girlfriend in the first place. You can bet your bottom dollar that when that guy does find a girl he truly loves, he will be proposing immediately.

2-) The husband who cheats on his wife because she insisits on NFP and that guy was never worth the time of day in the first place.

I am a single woman and I am with you that it would be great to respect men but it is hard in this sexually promiscuous society. However, men are only 50% of the problem. The other 50% of women. What Jason Evert forgot to tell you that in order for men to meet the high standard, all women must inforce it.

The reality is, I can rarely remember a man mocking me for saving myself, but women...... that is a whole other story. More woman have called me a prude for wanting to wait. Most women do not me to come to the girls night out because I put a damper on the evening. Lots of times at the office when I try to join the girl talk they tell me 'CM, I don't think you want to hear about this'. They make it very obvious they don't want me around because their 'sleeze' talk is so much funner than me.

So, yes, I agree with you it is hard not to think of all men as perverts. But as women, it is up to us to set a good example for women and hope there are some good men out there to set a good example for men

CM
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  #7  
Old May 23, '11, 11:59 pm
stephe1987 stephe1987 is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

I agree that it is two-sided.

Women are often mean to each other and are promiscuous, too. Many "modern" women want to sleep with men and brag about it to their friends. Men brag about the women they sleep with. It's sort of a contest to them. Men can also be mean to women and call them names if they don't get their way; it's like a small child throwing a tantrum because he wants the woman to act a certain way but she will not.

These people are immature (self-centered, pleasure-seeking) emotionally and are not ready to settle down. They put themselves first, which is not a good basis for marriage or parenthood, where you are required to put your spouse and children before yourself. And they put God last and/or completely ignore Him, which can be destructive to a person's faith.

My suggestion would be to avoid these people. Test them by going out on a date with them and being up front. Tell them you believe in chastity and explain what it is (chastity is NOT "everything BUT sex"). They will probably leave within a week or two (if not on that day) because they are used to sleeping with their date within a short period of time. It's a good way to weed out people and find someone who is interested in getting serious.

As for NFP, be up front about that, too. Let them know that you will not be using ABC under any circumstances, just like sex outside of marriage is not okay under any circumstances. Let them know that, despite what the media and drug companie$ want you to believe, NFP does work (it is not the rhythm method, which is what people are talking about when they say it doesn't work). Encourage your anti-NFP friends to take an NFP class and remind them that risky days are not a good time to have intercourse because it can and does lead to pregnancy. Let them know that NFP statistically has very, very low divorce rates (I've heard <2%, <1%), which of course are far below the average for any other group. NFP encourages good communication because people think of other ways to be close without jumping in bed every time. And abstaining for a while can make the infertile period more like a honeymoon again, where you fall in love with your spouse all over again.
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  #8  
Old May 24, '11, 12:28 am
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kelvinf kelvinf is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

I would simply like to point out that the disordered sexual desire in men is by far more pronounced than in women. Pray for our healing, purification, and redeemption and don't be disappointed. It's who we are!
__________________
Die Bibel ist nicht dazu da, daß wir sie kritisieren, sondern dazu, daß sie uns kritisiert. Søren Kierkegaard
Wer mit dem Katholizismus nicht einverstanden ist, der soll protestantisch oder atheistisch werden, aber nicht versuchen, ihn durch Reformen zu verunstalten. P. Feyerabend
Lord have mercy
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  #9  
Old May 24, '11, 12:46 am
Joseph L Varga Joseph L Varga is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Good advice by Stephe1987 on weeding out the unsuitable dates. Jason Evert may have forgotten to tell, or may have found it too obvious to mention, that not ALL men are interested in meeting higher standards. Heck, it may not even be a majority, even among those who attend church. So, you really must start with a "selection" or "weed-out" phase, to find someone who does take seriously the commandments of God, and is already working hard on living up to God's standards, independently of the fact that you are going to be a partner and not a foe in their quest for living every single day in a way pleasing to God. It's really not like you can start dating any womanizer, fornicator, and expect them to change their ways, just because you hold them to high standards. No, they will drag you down to their own lack of standards, or else quickly dump you.

Regarding ABC and NFP, I wouldn't start by explaining to my date that NFP is as effective as ABC - even though it is, as a matter of fact. I would start by explaining this: we are not going to use ABC, period. And that means, we might conceive a baby, whenever we have sex. It's much more important to put the emphasis on the simple fact that every single time you have sex with your spouse, it is possible that a baby will be conceived. Although the chances are lower during certain phases of a woman's fertility cycle, the possibility is always there and that's what needs to be said first. Every time the spouses unite, they say yes to God possibly giving them the gift of a baby.
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  #10  
Old May 24, '11, 4:09 am
benidict benidict is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryRocks! View Post
First, I want to say that I do not want this to be a male bashing thread.



I have however seen a pattern both in my life and in the life of friends. We are told (recently even when Jason Evert was on), that if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them. Well, they haven't. Only a few have, compared to the general Catholic population. And they are married. There are also countless single women who can testify that their men don't meet the standards but rather find a woman who will not follow the Church's teachings.

Then, I had an argument about contraception and tried to explain NFP, and finally my friend said in exasperation that it doesn't work. She cited how she knew many who tried it and still got pregnant. And, she added that their husbands refuse to abstain and since they won't cooperate, a woman does not have a choice but to use contraception, because he will leave, or find a girlfriend. And then I see that that is exactly what happens (three recent cases where the man found a girlfriend because the wife insisted on NFP).

We try to defend the Church's teaching, but don't see a lot of cooperation from our male counterparts.
How does a woman not get discouraged or cynical when faced with this? How can we respect men when faced with this? I want to respect them!
Honestly my friend. Perhaps they should have discussed this before they were married? A woman cant just wake up one day and cut her husband off, and think its gonna be ok. That is kind of an unfair burden and test to put on him, correct? How in the middle of the game can the rules be switched? perhaps the ladies need to discuss this with their prospective mates ahead of time, so this kind of situation can be avoided. Your allowing Outside entities dictate terms of your marriage. This is unacceptable. Just some things to think about. Not mad at the ladies who decide this, but think its unfair to the men, to enter into such a covenant if they were led to believe otherwise. Peace
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  #11  
Old May 24, '11, 4:44 am
Paul1961 Paul1961 is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

"if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them."

Standards must be reasonable. Attainable.


Most of you have watched way too many princess movies growing up. I'm sorry to have to break this to you. Prince Charming is not going to come searching for you while you await him in your ivory tower. There is no happily ever after.


Marriage is work. Hard work. I'm not perfect. She not perfect. There's no such thing. I don't have a white horse. The birds don't break into song when she steps out on to the porch.

There was a thread the other day from a young man who couldn't cope with the thought that his girlfriend was not a virgin. Ivory tower syndrome.

Did Jesus live in an ivory tower?
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  #12  
Old May 24, '11, 5:47 am
MaryRocks! MaryRocks! is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Quote:
Originally Posted by benidict View Post
Honestly my friend. Perhaps they should have discussed this before they were married? A woman cant just wake up one day and cut her husband off, and think its gonna be ok. That is kind of an unfair burden and test to put on him, correct? How in the middle of the game can the rules be switched? perhaps the ladies need to discuss this with their prospective mates ahead of time, so this kind of situation can be avoided. Your allowing Outside entities dictate terms of your marriage. This is unacceptable. Just some things to think about. Not mad at the ladies who decide this, but think its unfair to the men, to enter into such a covenant if they were led to believe otherwise. Peace
Oh they did, and had many children. But the men changed their minds.

Thank you all for the advice. Sometimes it is hard because we are up front about being faithful and then find ourselves over forty, single and childless (and we didn't 'wait' because we had a career!). An inordinate number of women find themselves here.
It makes it hard for evangelization, and shakes the faith of many.
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  #13  
Old May 24, '11, 5:54 am
benidict benidict is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryRocks! View Post
Oh they did, and had many children. But the men changed their minds.

Thank you all for the advice. Sometimes it is hard because we are up front about being faithful and then find ourselves over forty, single and childless (and we didn't 'wait' because we had a career!). An inordinate number of women find themselves here.
It makes it hard for evangelization, and shakes the faith of many.
So perhaps I misunderstood. Are you saying they WERE in agreement with the Catholic Churches teachings, then the MEN decided they wanted their wives on artificial methods? Ok. That would change things considerably. If the man had agreed to this, then changed the rules in the middle of the Game. HE would be the one at fault. No way I would want my wife on the pill, and personally I have always found condoms detestable. I had a vecsectomy years before my conversion, so its not so much an issue. with me. my fiancee is not Catholic either, but At least she will not have these chemicals floating around in her body. We are both much older too, with grown and almost grown children. Sorry if I misunderstood, A guys who did this Would be a pig. No argument here.
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  #14  
Old May 24, '11, 7:05 am
dskysmine dskysmine is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

I don't think you are being fair...
I live in a Catholic country and I am a male that wishes to stay a virgin until I am married but even Catholic girls I know of think that this is outdated.
Girls these days get an excuse for just anything: dressing however they like, teasing whomever they like, abusing whomever they like just because if a man does anything against what they want he is either "rude", "medieval", or a "fag" (I've been called this).

Men and women are both called to be chaste and the fact that God made men phisically stronger than most women makes the man more responsible for what he does but that doesn't mean that women get a free pass. Women can control emotions much better than men can.

There are both chaste men and women and promiscuous men and women. Promiscuous men need promiscuous women to "pair up" unless you want talk about homosexuality.

Look for good men and you will find them. They are not imaginary. Just don't expect to find many if you already go with that prejudice about men.

God Bless you,
Daniel
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  #15  
Old May 24, '11, 7:12 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
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Default Re: Men who refuse to abstain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul1961 View Post
"if we hold men to high standards, they will meet them."

Standards must be reasonable. Attainable.


Most of you have watched way too many princess movies growing up. I'm sorry to have to break this to you. Prince Charming is not going to come searching for you while you await him in your ivory tower. There is no happily ever after.


Marriage is work. Hard work. I'm not perfect. She not perfect. There's no such thing. I don't have a white horse. The birds don't break into song when she steps out on to the porch.

There was a thread the other day from a young man who couldn't cope with the thought that his girlfriend was not a virgin. Ivory tower syndrome.

Did Jesus live in an ivory tower?

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